Print

Please login or register.

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[DeathDealer]

The Doom marine's Kung-Fu is a little weak. I'd give $15 dollars just see every level of Berserk increase his Fist attack speed by 10%.

To keep things from getting totally out of hand with Fin I'd suggest that the Brute speed bonus be applied after Finesse, like the armor speed bonus/penalty is applied after Hellrunner.

I'd also like to suggest that you only get this benefit when fighting without any weapon equipped, unless you have Juggler in which case having no weapon prepared lets you use your Brute enhanced Fist speed like any other melee weapon.
(No plasma rifle-in-hand Karate Master action. Also it would help with the to-be-mentioned-later Juggler issues that would arrise.)

Also since it's now the only weapon that you can't modify, I don't see why people couldn't get a little help improving that most pitiful of attacks.

Here is a table of speed and the formula used to create it.

Atck Spd = [1 - (.15*FinLvls)]*[(1 - .1*BruLvls)]

Fist Attack Speed Chart:

Bru Lvl	Fin Lvl	Attack Speed (seconds)
1	-	.9
-	1	.85
2	-	.8
1	1	.765
3	-	.7
-	2	.7
2	1	.68
1	2	.63
4	-	.6
3	1	.595
2	2	.56
-	3	.55
4	1	.51
5	-	.5
1	3	.495
3	2	.49
2	3	.44
5	1	.425
4	2	.42
3	3	.385
5	2	.35
4	3	.33
5	3	.275

Let's compare this with the combat knife and chainsaw:

Fist(5 Bru/3 Fin)
Spd: .275
Avg Dmg: 1.5 + 15
Dmg/Sec: 60 (59.998)
Dmg Range: 16-19

Chainsaw(5 Bru/3 Fin)
Spd: .55
Avg Dmg: 14 + 15
Dmg/Sec: 52.722
Dmg Range: 19-39

Fist(5 Bru/2 Fin)
Spd: .275
Avg Dmg: 1.5 + 15
Dmg/Sec: 47 (47.142)
Dmg Range: 16-19

Fist(4 Bru/3 Fin)
Spd: .35
Avg Dmg: 1.5 + 12
Dmg/Sec: 41 (40.909)
Dmg Range: 13-15

Combat Knife(5 Bru/3 Fin)
Spd: .55
Avg Dmg: 5 + 15
Dmg/Sec: 36.36
Dmg Range: 17-25

Fist(5 Bru)*
Spd: .5
Avg Dmg: 1.5 + 15
Dmg/Sec: 33
Dmg Range: 16-19

*Only slightly better than the current best possible fist damage (29.7).

Observations:
Without Fin

Wow. More effective than I was guessing originally! So despite sensing a little OP'dness I'm going to make a pro's/con's
list anyway.

Pros:
+ Slightly easier AoB 1st level
+ If you can't find a chainsaw or make a chainsword you're not screwed on Ao100.
+ The chainsaw/chainsword would still be desirable due to the greater damage per hit. You could gib enemies, modify/assemble it, and go berserk more often*.
*Depending on the chance to berserk formula which I don't actually know..
+ Strongman Diamond challenges might stand a chance.
+ Blademaster might just become Kung-fu master with this addition. Although that would require a 12 level investment. Still the speed with which you could take out weak enemies would be God Handly.

Cons:
+ Slightly easier AoB 1st level
+ Much easier Strongman Platinum/Diamond challenges.
+ Juggler problems...
   - What if having no weapon prepared was better than having one prepared? That prepared combat knife (for throwing) is just holding you back!
   - What if you wanted to be able to switch between a chainsaw and your fists? Not currently possible if you have Juggler.
   ...unless having no weapon equipped overrides the juggler/prepared melee feature as suggested. Then everything is awesome.
+ Unmodded chainsaw/chainsword is dps outclassed at the 8 level investment point, although still potentially desirable.
+ Knives are dps outclassed at the 7 level investment point. Though you might still throw them!
+ No Army of the Dead master trait & fist mastery, although you still make out much better than you did! :(

[Game Hunter]

The Doom marine's Kung-Fu is a little weak. I'd give $15 dollars just see every level of Berserk increase his Fist attack speed by 10%.

Pros:
1 Slightly easier AoB 1st level
2 If you can't find a chainsaw or make a chainsword you're not screwed on Ao100.
3 The chainsaw/chainsword would still be desirable due to the greater damage per hit. You could gib enemies, modify/assemble it, and go berserk more often*.
*Depending on the chance to berserk formula which I don't actually know..
4 Strongman Diamond challenges might stand a chance.
5 Blademaster might just become Kung-fu master with this addition. Although that would require a 12 level investment. Still the speed with which you could take out weak enemies would be God Handly.

Cons:
1 Slightly easier AoB 1st level
2 Much easier Strongman Platinum/Diamond challenges.
3 Juggler problems...
   - What if having no weapon prepared was better than having one prepared? That prepared combat knife (for throwing) is just holding you back!
   - What if you wanted to be able to switch between a chainsaw and your fists? Not currently possible if you have Juggler.
   ...unless having no weapon equipped overrides the juggler/prepared melee feature as suggested. Then everything is awesome.
4 Unmodded chainsaw/chainsword is dps outclassed at the 8 level investment point, although still potentially desirable.
5 Knives are dps outclassed at the 7 level investment point. Though you might still throw them!
6 No Army of the Dead master trait & fist mastery, although you still make out much better than you did! :(

I guess I don't really see the benefits other than making melee a LITTLE bit different. In response to your pro/cons:

Pros:
1. Barely noticeable. If beating dlvl1 on AoB was a problem, it would have been fixed versions ago.
2. The odds of not being able to assemble a chainsword on A100 is so very, very low, that this is also barely noticeable. Though obviously the fully-powered fists would eventually take over in either case, and a melee-only A100 game SHOULD be quite hard.
3. Isn't this sort of a con? Not that having variety is bad, but suggesting an idea, then giving a reason why NOT to use it, isn't a compelling argument to add it. On the other hand, zerking would actually be easier with fists at this speed compared to the typical melee weapons.
4. This is probably the best reason to include this. However, with this in place, Strongman Gold/Platinum are identical, since you'd probably use fists in both cases. Making fist > knife would probably change the requirement, which would then make this reason moot.
5. Definitely an interesting way to change up Blademaster. It might be a better idea to make Kung Fu Master retroactively apply this bonus to Brute (along with other stuff) which gives players the incentive to switch AFTER they hit the master trait.

Cons:
1. see above
2. see above
3. I wouldn't be surprised if holding nothing in your equipped slot already counts as you having your fists equipped. I guess I also wouldn't be surprised if you tested this. To be safe, make sure that the fist bonus doesn't apply unless you ARE holding exactly nothing in your equipped slot (possibly even both slots).
4. Just want to mention that this technically wouldn't happen until level 15, when you can finally manage to get three points into the extra trait slots. Which means it wouldn't happen except for A100.
5. see above
6. MAD probably needs to not block Fin at some point anyway. Few players actually select it on harder difficulties (or A100) because of what it blocks, so I'm thinking there should be a rebalance.

But to reiterate the most important considerations: this improves fists very little because most games won't even see Bru5/Fin3 due to how high of a level you need to get to it. The "normal" max, Bru3/Fin2, is at ~0.5s, compared to 0.7s with a chainsaw, and the difference is pretty clear. Having a master trait that revolves around using fists is a way to save the idea, with the master trait granting increased attack speed, maybe increased dodging/protection, if you use only fists. Otherwise I don't know if it's worth the addition. (But hey, 15 bucks says otherwise!)

[DeathDealer]

You're right. I apologize, this is certainly a case of post hubris. I'd like to request that this thread be shifted to the Request for Features board for further testing.

I blame my rashness on the Table, it has a mind of its own!