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Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship

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Fingerzam:
We had some discussino about AoM on IRC, mainly about the difficulty of actually killing Cybie with pistols. The following might contain some spoilers.


21:24  * Jered_Cain starts a Marksman challenge, picks Son of a Gun to start.
21:25 <DaEezT> wise choice
21:25 < Jered_Cain> I'll get this one out of the way first.  Level 10, after all, with just a pistol.
21:26 < Jered_Cain> ... erm, an advanced pistol.
21:26 <DaEezT> ya
21:26 <DaEezT> Marksman challange isn'T that hard
21:26 <DaEezT> get 2x son of a gun and then the advanced trait
21:26 < Jered_Cain> Then I'll start going Eagle Eye.
21:26 < Fingerzam> Please tell me if you find a good way to kill Cybie without a thermie in AoM. I think I've died twice against Cybie with an AoM.
21:26 -!- Jered_Cain [---] has quit [G-lined]
21:28 < Fingerzam> Well, there wasn't intuition 3 when I was testing AoM, so it might make killing Cybie a bit more possible without a shitload of med-packs.
21:30 <DaEezT> is it possible to dodge cybies missiels?
21:31 < Fingerzam> Yes. But I think the best thing would be going to melee before starting to shoot.
21:31 <DaEezT> melee in AoM?
21:31 < Fingerzam> Well, the point being that cybie will melee, not shoot missiles.
21:32 < Fingerzam> At least I thought that he doesn't do as much damage in melee.
21:32 <DaEezT> dunno
21:33 <DaEezT> just thought max hellrunner + coward might be worth a try in AoM
21:34 < Fingerzam> But you'll also need Eagly Eye for actually hitting Cybie while cowarding.
21:34 <DaEezT> in addition to dual pistols o/c
21:34 <DaEezT> ye
21:34 <DaEezT> it all ads up to alot of levels :p
21:34 < Fingerzam> Yes. Probably all you'll get with an AoM.
21:35 < Fingerzam> Leaving you with default hp and no tough as nails.
21:35 <DaEezT> hm
21:35 <DaEezT> someone oughta do the math
21:36 <DaEezT> depending on your armor and medkits what is better: the damage absorbed by tough as nails or the damage "absorbed" by dodging
21:36 <DaEezT> and I suck at math stuff like that :p
21:37 < Fingerzam> I think lvl 3 Ironman and some Tough as Nails would be better. Well, I'd need to know how dodging is calculated and what the default chances are against Cybie.
21:39 <DaEezT> ye
21:39 <DaEezT> but more dodge = less hits (ZOMG) and that means your armor won't wear out as quickly
21:39 < Fingerzam> Well, if you make sure that you have 2 red armors for Cybie, you could take Hellrunner or something else instead of Tough as Nails.
21:39 <DaEezT> with ironman you have more hp but that bigger pool will be more exposed because of the lack of armor
21:40 <DaEezT> or that
21:40 < Fingerzam> Well, this is only against Cybie, and Cybie does some pretty big amounts of damage, against which armor isn't that good. Though it will help hell of a lot against those nasty Arachs on the way.
21:42 < Fingerzam> Though hellrunner will also help dodging that plasma... Well, I dunno, I usually go with TaN.
21:42 <DaEezT> or you could hope for alot of phase devices and go intuition 3 and max finesse/dual wield and shoot like crazy and teleport awaay as soon as he gets to close
21:42 <DaEezT> but you would have to be lucky :p
21:45 < Fingerzam> Well, Intuition 3 takes 5 traits, max dualgunner takes 5 (though you should take that last level of Son of a Gun, it's better than a single level of dualgunner after the first.) Taking also finesse 3 takes a total of 13-14 traits, which you won't be getting.
21:47 <DaEezT> oh :p
21:47 <DaEezT> well, was utterly theoretical anyway
21:48 < Fingerzam> But that Intuition 3 might work anyways, atleast if Cybie spawns far away from you.


And then some numbers:


22:52 < Fingerzam> An AoM (with SoaG 3, and some dualgunner) does on avarage 14 points of damage against Cybie. With maxed Dualgunner, it takes 4 turns to shoot, so you would get 35 damage per 10 turns, but reloading takes way too much time while in contact with Cybie, and all shots won't probably hit.


That is, with SoaG 3, your advanced pistol will do 2d5+6 points of damage. Cybie has an armor of 4 (taken from the wiki thread), so it will be reduced to 2d5+2, resulting in an avarage damage of 8 for the advanced pistol. Your second pistol (assuming that it's just a normal one) will have 2d4+2 damage against cybie, so it will have an avarage damage of 6, resultin in 8+6=14 points of total damage.

My wild quess is that Cybie has 150 hitpoints. This can be (likely is) far from right, but with these numbers we can get the following time for killing Cybie:

10,7 shots for killing cybie, assuming that you hit with every shot (probably won't). This would require reloading once and would take a total of ~67 turns. With a few medpacks it should be very much possible, but hitting him often probably requires some levels in Eagle Eye.

I assumed that reloading both pistols takes twice the amound of time required for reloading a single pistol (time taken from wiki, 12 turns, don't know if it's still accurate)

Feel free to contribute.

Edit by Kornel: formatted a little for clarity ;-)

DaEezT:
First of all: AHHHHHH COLORS!!!!1one one

Anyways.
I gave this a little thought an came up with the following set of weird ideas:

In a normal game your damage output is determined by the weapons you find. Things like the BFG or the rocket launcher (and the advanced versions) do some serious damage. That means investing in defensive skills (ironman, tough as nails) or scouting skills (cat eye, intuition) makes sense, but in an AoM game it's completle different.

AoM doesn't allow you to switch weapons at all and limits you to pistols. So the only way to increase your damage output is by taking the right skills.

Let's look at a level 3 AoM char: (note: I don include any armor values yet because I don't want this to be Cybie specific yet)
Son of a gun (2)
Dualgunner (1)
With an advanced pistol and a normal one the average damage output is:
6 from the advanced pistol (2 * 1-5)
4 on the advanced pistol from Soag
5 from the normal pistol (2 * 1-4)
4 on the normal pistol from Soag
Each attack consists of both pistols being fired once, so one attack averages 19 damage
Both pistols have 6 round clips which means at total of 114 damage between reloads
It also means that each bulled is worth 9.5 Damage, and this is very intersting indeed!
It makes one stack of 100 bullets worth 950 damage

Let's look at the plasma rifle for comparison:
First, let's invest those three skills into Son of a bitch.
That means a grand damage output of (1d8 + 3) * 8 which is an average of 7,5 * 8
Powercells stack up to 50 so one inventory slot filled with powercells is worth 375 Damage

This is very intersting indeed. And we still have one more level of Soag left plus the option for even more damage with Soab.
My point here is that you don't need to fill up your inventory with 10mm ammo, In fact you'll probalby never need more than two stacks at any given moment. Combined with the negated need for carrying around different weapons and their corresponding ammo types this means you are free to fill up your inventory with medkits, phase devices and armors.


Now let's return to the topic at hand: pistolizing Cybie to death!

I'll start with a few things I deem noteworthy:
- Armor seems to be applied to every shot individually, just liek damage bonuses from skills are. So a few heavy hits > many light ones. Which means Soag (3) seems essential
- A long fight means alot of damage from Cybie, so we oughta keep the fight short. This again favors Soag (3) because it also reduces Shooting time.
- Having a high damage output means less total hits needed -> fewer shots (=saves time) -> fewer bullets needed ->  fewer reloads (=saves time)
- Having a high hit-% is imo preferrable to faster reloading or shooting because it reduces the number of misses -> fewer shots needed (=saves time) -> fewer bullets needed ->  fewer reloads (=saves time)

With the above said let'S look at the damage output of a lvl4 player:
Son of a gun (3)
Dualgunner (1)

Assuming Cybie has 4 armor (see original post by Fingerzam) we have the following average damage output:
2 from the advanced pistol ( (2 * 1-5) - 4)
6 on the advanced pistol from Soag (armor already applied once to base)
1 from the normal pistol ( (2 * 1-4) - 4)
6 on the normal pistol from Soag (armor already applied once to base)
Each attack consists of both pistols being fired once, so one attack averages 15 damage.
Both pistols have 6 round clips which means at total of 90 damage between reloads.
It also means that each bulled is worth 7,5 damage.
It makes one stack of 100 bullets worth 750 damage.

Assuming you have an average hitting rate of 66% (2/3) you can hurt Cybie for 560 damage with initially loaded pistols + 1 stack of 100 bullets.
So you really don't need to carry around more ammo. If your hit-% really sux then you'll end up wasting to much time on reloading anyway.

Now what?
Har, we are only level 4!
I think it is save to assume an AoM player will always be level 6 when reaching Cybie (possibly higher, but things can only get easier , so lets do it for 6)
That means we have two more picks ahead of us.
Two skills means that Dualgunner will be the only advanced skill open for us. And brute is useless. So let's look at the rest:

Hellrunner, Ironman, Tough as nails: I'll leave those one to someone with a math fetish. Effectively they decrease the damage you take and thus increase the time between medkits which means more shooting before healing etc. Not my kind of thing :p Also remember wha I said about your inventory: You'll have more space for armors/phase devices/medkits and that could somewhat replace the need for such defensive skills.

Son of a bitch: high damage output = less total hits needed -> fewer shots (=saves time) -> fewer bullets needed ->  fewer reloads (=saves time)

Eagle eye: lower number of misses -> fewer shots needed (=saves time) -> fewer bullets needed ->  fewer reloads (=saves time)

Finesse: Only 10% per level so Dualgunner would be the better choice

Dualgunner: At (1) you fire at 160% and every additional level reduces the time by 20%

So whats my verdict?
Take EagleEye (2)!
The damage potential with Soag(3) and Dualgunner (1) is huge already. The best thing is to make sure you hit as often as possible and thus end it as soon as possible.

Of course I'll try out my wise ass tips myself, unless I run into two Arch-Viles again...

RickVoid:
Okay. I gave your plan a shot.

In order to do this effectively, you have to constantly change tactics (coward moving, aggresive fire) to make up for the fact that you either won't get eagle eye until levels 4 or 5. I managed to get to Level 3, Second challenge in Hell's Arena. (Last enemy(cacodemon) killed me shortly after I got Dualgunner. I Managed to find a blue armor on floor 2 (squee!) and I had two greens in reserve that I forgot to wear when he broke it. I was out of health packs. (Of which I got five, the top four (two of which I managed to save from a former human) and one on level 2.

Somebody much better than me (I've only gotten to level 17 on easy, 12 on Medium) will probably do well with this.

Angel of Bersek is kicking my butt right now. I can't get to level 3!!!!

Kornel Kisielewicz:
BTW, tactics will be completely revamped next version.

RickVoid:

--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on November 28, 2006, 14:12 ---BTW, tactics will be completely revamped next version.

--- End quote ---

SQWEEE!!!!!!!

*collapses into a drooling, quivering lump of man-flesh*

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