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Author Topic: Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship  (Read 7809 times)

Fingerzam

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Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship
« on: November 27, 2006, 15:02 »

We had some discussino about AoM on IRC, mainly about the difficulty of actually killing Cybie with pistols. The following might contain some spoilers.


21:24  * Jered_Cain starts a Marksman challenge, picks Son of a Gun to start.
21:25 <DaEezT> wise choice
21:25 < Jered_Cain> I'll get this one out of the way first.  Level 10, after all, with just a pistol.
21:26 < Jered_Cain> ... erm, an advanced pistol.
21:26 <DaEezT> ya
21:26 <DaEezT> Marksman challange isn'T that hard
21:26 <DaEezT> get 2x son of a gun and then the advanced trait
21:26 < Jered_Cain> Then I'll start going Eagle Eye.
21:26 < Fingerzam> Please tell me if you find a good way to kill Cybie without a thermie in AoM. I think I've died twice against Cybie with an AoM.
21:26 -!- Jered_Cain [---] has quit [G-lined]
21:28 < Fingerzam> Well, there wasn't intuition 3 when I was testing AoM, so it might make killing Cybie a bit more possible without a shitload of med-packs.
21:30 <DaEezT> is it possible to dodge cybies missiels?
21:31 < Fingerzam> Yes. But I think the best thing would be going to melee before starting to shoot.
21:31 <DaEezT> melee in AoM?
21:31 < Fingerzam> Well, the point being that cybie will melee, not shoot missiles.
21:32 < Fingerzam> At least I thought that he doesn't do as much damage in melee.
21:32 <DaEezT> dunno
21:33 <DaEezT> just thought max hellrunner + coward might be worth a try in AoM
21:34 < Fingerzam> But you'll also need Eagly Eye for actually hitting Cybie while cowarding.
21:34 <DaEezT> in addition to dual pistols o/c
21:34 <DaEezT> ye
21:34 <DaEezT> it all ads up to alot of levels :p
21:34 < Fingerzam> Yes. Probably all you'll get with an AoM.
21:35 < Fingerzam> Leaving you with default hp and no tough as nails.
21:35 <DaEezT> hm
21:35 <DaEezT> someone oughta do the math
21:36 <DaEezT> depending on your armor and medkits what is better: the damage absorbed by tough as nails or the damage "absorbed" by dodging
21:36 <DaEezT> and I suck at math stuff like that :p
21:37 < Fingerzam> I think lvl 3 Ironman and some Tough as Nails would be better. Well, I'd need to know how dodging is calculated and what the default chances are against Cybie.
21:39 <DaEezT> ye
21:39 <DaEezT> but more dodge = less hits (ZOMG) and that means your armor won't wear out as quickly
21:39 < Fingerzam> Well, if you make sure that you have 2 red armors for Cybie, you could take Hellrunner or something else instead of Tough as Nails.
21:39 <DaEezT> with ironman you have more hp but that bigger pool will be more exposed because of the lack of armor
21:40 <DaEezT> or that
21:40 < Fingerzam> Well, this is only against Cybie, and Cybie does some pretty big amounts of damage, against which armor isn't that good. Though it will help hell of a lot against those nasty Arachs on the way.
21:42 < Fingerzam> Though hellrunner will also help dodging that plasma... Well, I dunno, I usually go with TaN.
21:42 <DaEezT> or you could hope for alot of phase devices and go intuition 3 and max finesse/dual wield and shoot like crazy and teleport awaay as soon as he gets to close
21:42 <DaEezT> but you would have to be lucky :p
21:45 < Fingerzam> Well, Intuition 3 takes 5 traits, max dualgunner takes 5 (though you should take that last level of Son of a Gun, it's better than a single level of dualgunner after the first.) Taking also finesse 3 takes a total of 13-14 traits, which you won't be getting.
21:47 <DaEezT> oh :p
21:47 <DaEezT> well, was utterly theoretical anyway
21:48 < Fingerzam> But that Intuition 3 might work anyways, atleast if Cybie spawns far away from you.


And then some numbers:


22:52 < Fingerzam> An AoM (with SoaG 3, and some dualgunner) does on avarage 14 points of damage against Cybie. With maxed Dualgunner, it takes 4 turns to shoot, so you would get 35 damage per 10 turns, but reloading takes way too much time while in contact with Cybie, and all shots won't probably hit.


That is, with SoaG 3, your advanced pistol will do 2d5+6 points of damage. Cybie has an armor of 4 (taken from the wiki thread), so it will be reduced to 2d5+2, resulting in an avarage damage of 8 for the advanced pistol. Your second pistol (assuming that it's just a normal one) will have 2d4+2 damage against cybie, so it will have an avarage damage of 6, resultin in 8+6=14 points of total damage.

My wild quess is that Cybie has 150 hitpoints. This can be (likely is) far from right, but with these numbers we can get the following time for killing Cybie:

10,7 shots for killing cybie, assuming that you hit with every shot (probably won't). This would require reloading once and would take a total of ~67 turns. With a few medpacks it should be very much possible, but hitting him often probably requires some levels in Eagle Eye.

I assumed that reloading both pistols takes twice the amound of time required for reloading a single pistol (time taken from wiki, 12 turns, don't know if it's still accurate)

Feel free to contribute.

Edit by Kornel: formatted a little for clarity ;-)
« Last Edit: November 27, 2006, 15:31 by Kornel Kisielewicz »
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DaEezT

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Re: Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2006, 08:19 »

First of all: AHHHHHH COLORS!!!!1one one

Anyways.
I gave this a little thought an came up with the following set of weird ideas:

In a normal game your damage output is determined by the weapons you find. Things like the BFG or the rocket launcher (and the advanced versions) do some serious damage. That means investing in defensive skills (ironman, tough as nails) or scouting skills (cat eye, intuition) makes sense, but in an AoM game it's completle different.

AoM doesn't allow you to switch weapons at all and limits you to pistols. So the only way to increase your damage output is by taking the right skills.

Let's look at a level 3 AoM char: (note: I don include any armor values yet because I don't want this to be Cybie specific yet)
Son of a gun (2)
Dualgunner (1)
With an advanced pistol and a normal one the average damage output is:
6 from the advanced pistol (2 * 1-5)
4 on the advanced pistol from Soag
5 from the normal pistol (2 * 1-4)
4 on the normal pistol from Soag
Each attack consists of both pistols being fired once, so one attack averages 19 damage
Both pistols have 6 round clips which means at total of 114 damage between reloads
It also means that each bulled is worth 9.5 Damage, and this is very intersting indeed!
It makes one stack of 100 bullets worth 950 damage

Let's look at the plasma rifle for comparison:
First, let's invest those three skills into Son of a bitch.
That means a grand damage output of (1d8 + 3) * 8 which is an average of 7,5 * 8
Powercells stack up to 50 so one inventory slot filled with powercells is worth 375 Damage

This is very intersting indeed. And we still have one more level of Soag left plus the option for even more damage with Soab.
My point here is that you don't need to fill up your inventory with 10mm ammo, In fact you'll probalby never need more than two stacks at any given moment. Combined with the negated need for carrying around different weapons and their corresponding ammo types this means you are free to fill up your inventory with medkits, phase devices and armors.


Now let's return to the topic at hand: pistolizing Cybie to death!

I'll start with a few things I deem noteworthy:
- Armor seems to be applied to every shot individually, just liek damage bonuses from skills are. So a few heavy hits > many light ones. Which means Soag (3) seems essential
- A long fight means alot of damage from Cybie, so we oughta keep the fight short. This again favors Soag (3) because it also reduces Shooting time.
- Having a high damage output means less total hits needed -> fewer shots (=saves time) -> fewer bullets needed ->  fewer reloads (=saves time)
- Having a high hit-% is imo preferrable to faster reloading or shooting because it reduces the number of misses -> fewer shots needed (=saves time) -> fewer bullets needed ->  fewer reloads (=saves time)

With the above said let'S look at the damage output of a lvl4 player:
Son of a gun (3)
Dualgunner (1)

Assuming Cybie has 4 armor (see original post by Fingerzam) we have the following average damage output:
2 from the advanced pistol ( (2 * 1-5) - 4)
6 on the advanced pistol from Soag (armor already applied once to base)
1 from the normal pistol ( (2 * 1-4) - 4)
6 on the normal pistol from Soag (armor already applied once to base)
Each attack consists of both pistols being fired once, so one attack averages 15 damage.
Both pistols have 6 round clips which means at total of 90 damage between reloads.
It also means that each bulled is worth 7,5 damage.
It makes one stack of 100 bullets worth 750 damage.

Assuming you have an average hitting rate of 66% (2/3) you can hurt Cybie for 560 damage with initially loaded pistols + 1 stack of 100 bullets.
So you really don't need to carry around more ammo. If your hit-% really sux then you'll end up wasting to much time on reloading anyway.

Now what?
Har, we are only level 4!
I think it is save to assume an AoM player will always be level 6 when reaching Cybie (possibly higher, but things can only get easier , so lets do it for 6)
That means we have two more picks ahead of us.
Two skills means that Dualgunner will be the only advanced skill open for us. And brute is useless. So let's look at the rest:

Hellrunner, Ironman, Tough as nails: I'll leave those one to someone with a math fetish. Effectively they decrease the damage you take and thus increase the time between medkits which means more shooting before healing etc. Not my kind of thing :p Also remember wha I said about your inventory: You'll have more space for armors/phase devices/medkits and that could somewhat replace the need for such defensive skills.

Son of a bitch: high damage output = less total hits needed -> fewer shots (=saves time) -> fewer bullets needed ->  fewer reloads (=saves time)

Eagle eye: lower number of misses -> fewer shots needed (=saves time) -> fewer bullets needed ->  fewer reloads (=saves time)

Finesse: Only 10% per level so Dualgunner would be the better choice

Dualgunner: At (1) you fire at 160% and every additional level reduces the time by 20%

So whats my verdict?
Take EagleEye (2)!
The damage potential with Soag(3) and Dualgunner (1) is huge already. The best thing is to make sure you hit as often as possible and thus end it as soon as possible.

Of course I'll try out my wise ass tips myself, unless I run into two Arch-Viles again...
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RickVoid

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Re: Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2006, 14:05 »

Okay. I gave your plan a shot.

In order to do this effectively, you have to constantly change tactics (coward moving, aggresive fire) to make up for the fact that you either won't get eagle eye until levels 4 or 5. I managed to get to Level 3, Second challenge in Hell's Arena. (Last enemy(cacodemon) killed me shortly after I got Dualgunner. I Managed to find a blue armor on floor 2 (squee!) and I had two greens in reserve that I forgot to wear when he broke it. I was out of health packs. (Of which I got five, the top four (two of which I managed to save from a former human) and one on level 2.

Somebody much better than me (I've only gotten to level 17 on easy, 12 on Medium) will probably do well with this.

Angel of Bersek is kicking my butt right now. I can't get to level 3!!!!
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2006, 14:12 »

BTW, tactics will be completely revamped next version.
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RickVoid

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Re: Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2006, 14:13 »

BTW, tactics will be completely revamped next version.

SQWEEE!!!!!!!

*collapses into a drooling, quivering lump of man-flesh*
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DaEezT

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Re: Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2006, 14:30 »

Okay. I gave your plan a shot.

In order to do this effectively, you have to constantly change tactics (coward moving, aggresive fire) to make up for the fact that you either won't get eagle eye until levels 4 or 5. I managed to get to Level 3, Second challenge in Hell's Arena. (Last enemy(cacodemon) killed me shortly after I got Dualgunner. I Managed to find a blue armor on floor 2 (squee!) and I had two greens in reserve that I forgot to wear when he broke it. I was out of health packs. (Of which I got five, the top four (two of which I managed to save from a former human) and one on level 2.

Somebody much better than me (I've only gotten to level 17 on easy, 12 on Medium) will probably do well with this.
I never beat 0.9.8 and only beat 0.9.8.5 on ITYTD but I still somehow manage to always get to 15+ in AoM :o

I also use coward while moving around but always switch to aggresive when I encounter an enemy. For early game AoM it's important that you are at least level 2 when you enter the arena so you hit clvl3 (and dualgunner) during the second arena round. beating the three cacodemons on round three without it is pretty hard. Also try running around the edges during the first two rounds so you can kill all the demons and maybe cou can level up to three without having to fight a cacodemon at all (rare).

btw, I got some AoM mortems over at the other forum


So, now for the general update:

After a few runs I kinda lost faith in Eagle eye. It might be the best choice for Cybie but once you hit 20+ surviving becomes really hard (see mortem).
For actually reaching cybie it might be better to take Hellrunner after Soag(3) Dualgunner(1). Combined with coward that might be the best way to reach 25.
But I dunno how muchl Hellrunner will help against Cybie.

A few damage figures I noticed in HNTR:
Soag(2) + Dg(1) can kill the following enemies with one attack (= both pistols fire once):
Former human
Former sergeant
Former captains (just barely)
Imp
Lost souls

Soag(2) + Dg(1) can kill the following enemies without reloading (= both pistols fire 6 rounds each):
Demon (usually down after 4)
Cacodemon

additionaly Soag(3) + Dg(1) can kill the following enemies with one attack (= both pistols fire once):
<nothing yet>

additionally Soag(3) + Dg(1) can kill the following enemies without reloading (= both pistols fire 6 rounds each):
Pain elemental (might also work with Soag(2) but couldn't confirm that)
Hell Knight

That means that once you hit 4 and thus maxed out your damage output you can keep clearing levels until you reach ~15 and  Arachs & Barons start showing up.
You can take Arachs by enaging them at melee range, but getting there can be painful.
Arch-Viles are never a good idea.
Barons are doable but you'll lose a lot of armor and health.

And now a take on the special levels:
The Arena: Not that hard (see top of this post). The earlier you get Dualgunner the better the result.
The Chained Court: Unequip your armor and kill all the humans for free xp. Four beserk packs = four times full health. Don't waste armor. I never tried killing the Cacodemons.
The Wall: Hearing them screem soothens the soul.
Hell's Armory: Kill the two souls and then move up to that middle patch and fire 100-150 rounds torwards the right side. THen proceed killing whatever remains. Free xp and 4 blue armors.
Halls of Carnage: The sergeants are free xp and you can grab the supercharge before leaving. IF you enter with full hp unequip your armor first so it's not damaged.
Unholy Cathedral: I like doing a quick trip around it and then leave
Spider's Lair: Bad idear
The Mortuary: Worst idear


More to come (propably)
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Derek

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Re: Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2006, 03:20 »

Hahaha! :D

Kornel, you should put a little spot somewhere on the Wall map that says:

Quote
There's a quote etched on the ground here: "Hearing them screem soothens the soul."
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2006, 05:24 »

No only :). The quote "I like doing a quick trip around it and then leave" is also brilliant :). I may add those as some kind of easter eggs... Wait! These could be the messages when leaving without kills :-P.
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Fingerzam

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Re: Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2006, 06:02 »

After a few runs I kinda lost faith in Eagle eye. It might be the best choice for Cybie but once you hit 20+ surviving becomes really hard (see mortem).
For actually reaching cybie it might be better to take Hellrunner after Soag(3) Dualgunner(1). Combined with coward that might be the best way to reach 25.
But I dunno how muchl Hellrunner will help against Cybie.

Eagle Eye is only worth it only if you'r going to get Intuition. And with SoAG(3) and Dualgunner(1), you would get Intuition(3) very late, makeing it a bit useless. So yeah, taking something else most likely is better.
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tekknej

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Re: Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2006, 10:41 »

Wait! These could be the messages when leaving without kills :-P.
sounds very nice. a though just came in my mind: if player exits every special level without kills - reward him (or do something to him) =) some levels will do you some damage if you will not fight back on the way to the exit =) afaik not every special level could be found in every game, so this could imply to all spawned special levels or to a specific number of levels you have to visit... this could for example open some new special level =)
hell, i know that makes little sense... just talking...
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DaEezT

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Re: Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2006, 02:22 »

Quick update:

I gave Intuition a try but not havin soag(1)/(2)/dualgunner arealy on really makes the early levels apain. Also the lack of a rocket launcher kinda limits the use of intuition for sniping (maze of rooms anyone?).

I switched my tactics to taking Soag(2) Sg(1) and then Tan (1)(2)(3) and finally Soag(3) at level 7.
It feels a bit easier that way because you tend to have Tan(2) by the time Arachs show up. But I still can't seem to get past 23 :p
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Fingerzam

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Re: Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2006, 13:17 »

Now that we have info about DRL's speedsystem available, here are some calculations. A normal turn takes 1000 energy (shooting with a normal weapon or moving in cautious.)

First, SoaG(3) vs SoaG(2) & Dualgunner(1):

With SoaG(3), shooting with a single pistol will take 400 energy and you will have +6 dmg, so your avarage damage with an advanced pistol will be 12 (2*3+6), so you will have 30 damage per 1000 energy.

With SoaG(2) & Dualgunner(1), shooting both pistols will take 840 energy, and only one of those pistols is likely an advanced one, so your avarage damage for shooting an advanced and a normal pistol will be 10(2*3+4 (you only have SoaG(2), so the dmg is lover))+9(2*2,5+4)=19, resulting in 22,6 dmg per 1000 energy.

Though there is something else to take into account here. With a single pistol you will have to reload every 6 shots, while you can shoot a total of 12 bullets with Dualgunner. Shooting 12 bullets with Dualgunner(1) and SoaG(2) takes 5040 energy, and you will have an avarage damage of 6*19=114. In that time you can shoot a total of 9,6 bullets with SoaG(3), taking reloading into account, resulting in 9,6*12=115,2 dmg.

So it seems that SoaG(3) actually wins SoaG(2) & Dualgunner(1) even in Dualgunners best scenario.


Additional levels in Dualgunner vs Finesse:

Now, with SoaG(3) & Dualgunner(1) shooting 2 bullets will take 560 energy.

With SoaG(3) & Dualgunner(2) it will take 480 energy and with SoaG(3) & Dualgunner(3) it will take 400.

Now if you take Finesse(1) instead of Dualgunner(2), resulting in having SoaG(3), Dualgunner(1) & Finesse(1) it will take only 420 energy. And with Finesse(2) it will be reduced to 280 energy. Finesse's max level is 2, so no more speed bonuses here.

Conclusion: take Finesse instead of additional levels of Dulagunner.

For those interested in speed drops for taking more Dualgunner after Finesse(2):

SoaG(3), Dualgunner(2) & Finesse(2) = 240 energy.

SoaG(3), Dualgunner(3) & Finesse(2) = 200 energy.

These levels will give an additional 0,8 shots per 1000 energy, so it's not totally useless, but you might want to take something else in addition to just speed traits. (I had an AoM with all speed traits die agains Cybie yesterday with 7 large med-packs, because Cybie killed me from 72% health while I reloaded.)

Rapid pistol:

Now with this it gets interesting, though right now you can't get the rapid bonus in AoM, since you can't switch your main pistol and you only get rapid bonus from main pistol.

With a rapid pistol, SoaG(3), Dualgunner(1) and Finesse(2) shooting both guns would take only 56(!) energy. As Dualgunner is applied last, it won't have a significant effect, but an additional (impossible) level in either SoaG or Finesse would make it have a negative energy cost, which, according to Kornel, would crash the game.

If you wan't to do some calculations yourself, take a look at the wiki thread.
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Supernaut

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Re: Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2007, 10:33 »

Just something I found useful.

3 traits Hellrunner + coward is enough to dodge most of Cybies missiles. I think its far more useful then going melee (He hits pretty hard). More than this, those traits help a lot in fighting cacos, BoH, and even Arachs (though here Ironman is probably a better idea). Cybie also reloads after every shot, which gives a simple possibility of walking (dodging) whenever he shoots, and shooting when he reloads.
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Fingerzam

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Re: Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2007, 12:47 »

Just something I found useful.

3 traits Hellrunner + coward is enough to dodge most of Cybies missiles. I think its far more useful then going melee (He hits pretty hard). More than this, those traits help a lot in fighting cacos, BoH, and even Arachs (though here Ironman is probably a better idea). Cybie also reloads after every shot, which gives a simple possibility of walking (dodging) whenever he shoots, and shooting when he reloads.

True. I think Cybie hit me only once or twice in my AoMr win when I tried to dodge his every missile and I only had Hellrunner(1).
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Re: Discussion on Angel of Marksmanship
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2007, 13:25 »

Try this with a shottyman trait and a double shottie. Bye,bye dear old Cybie.
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