Chaosforge Forum

  • August 14, 2022, 15:56
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.



Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Move the sergeants from the outside of Phobos Base Entry to the inside  (Read 6536 times)

Simon-v

  • Composer
  • Elder Chaos Guard
  • Captain
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 272
  • Only Human
    • View Profile
    • The Life and Works of One Simon Volpert

(This map of one of the versions of Phobos Surface was taken from the wiki. The colors are ignored to help make the point.)

##############################################################################
#............................................................................#
#...................................................#
#.....................................#
#..............................#
#...............#######...............#
#..............########h######...................#
#............#######h+#h+###.................#
#.............###+#h##..................#
#..............#>[\h+h#######+....................@..#
#............###+#h##.................#
#.............#######h+#h+###..................#
#.............########h######......................#
#...............#######....................................#
#.......................................................#
#...................................................................#
#............................................................................#
#............................................................................#
#............................................................................#
##############################################################################


So here's the thought. Currently, there is no reason a player would start in front of the base due to those two guys outside (marked red). They have shotguns and they HURT. They are also present in every version of the surface, making the game on higher difficulties a bit too unfair, especially to melee players.

I mean, heck, even E1M1 didn't do it to this extent, though it was close.

Players should not be punished for playing the game as intended.

How to fix this? Simply swap the sergeants outside with two of the formers inside, preferably the ones closer to the stairs (marked blue) in all versions of the level. Done. The "Frontal" configuration option can be removed. The beginning of the game is fair again. You can replace them with formers or remove them on lower difficulties.
Logged

ParaSait

  • Baffen :P
  • Elder
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
  • Happy Little Boozer
    • View Profile
    • MPSF

Yeah great idea. I certainly second this.
Logged
[18|7|3|0|0|0] [MED:13/43] [SPE:36/67] [ASM:11/40]

Check out my epic youtube channel!
Currently playing The Bard's Tale and System Shock 2 (coop with GrAV1t)!

Kg

  • Captain
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 261
    • View Profile
    • Celestial Horizon

Second... wait, thirdied? Seconded.
Logged
Hell Baron 2nd Lieutenant
[22|11|4|0|0]
Latest: Eagerness Bronze

Kashi

  • Elder
  • Sergeant Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
  • I'm going with the Alucard now
    • View Profile

Fourth-ed. It's more convenient that way, and it doesn't break the pace of the game at higher difficulties, as those sarges prove to be quite a nuisance in higher-end AoB runs.
Logged
0.9.9.5 - Archvile 2nd Lieutenant
[22][10][5][1][0]
"Tururu..."

MaiZure

  • Marketing/PR Ops Lead
  • Greater Elder
  • Major General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 827
  • Retired 1-Star General (.993)
    • View Profile
    • Project repository

For me, those two sergeants cause the most trouble on the map of phobos base where the entrance is very large, taking up most of the width of the map.

I always start in the corner and it's almost impossible to get around the corner w/o taking a shot unless you wait long enough for them to wander inside

I don't feel strongly one way or the other about moving them though
Logged
Hell Knight 1st Lt. (.997)
[22/13/9/2/0]

Nameless

  • First Sergeant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 115
  • Proud owner of 22/22 bronzes: "It's a start!"
    • View Profile

Move in AoB maybe, but I don't have any problem with them during a standard run; get near 'em and wait for a shot works fine, and I'd probably take more damage from the other formers without the immediate shotgun. It's not like you can't just restart if you get blasted too much in the first ten seconds. :P
Logged

Battleguy

  • Elder
  • Lance Corporal
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 28
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile

I like when they are now, because I like to start in the corner, and the shotgun helps that early.
Logged

UltimateChaos

  • Elder
  • Sergeant
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 95
  • Arch-Vile Mjr. General
    • View Profile

I think the main point here is that the "Frontal" configuration is currently useless if played on UV or higher.  I agree with that.  On melee games you're screwed, and on non-melee games you're taking way to much damage by facing them both at once.

That said, idk how to make it better.  With sarges on outside and playing from corner it does allow you to get a shotgun before you tackle the main bulk of the forces on the first level.  It does make the level quicker if you're going for a non-AoH timed run, and it doesn't matter much if there are no sergeants (playing on HMP or lower)
Logged
[22/22/19/7/3]
Just completed Strongman Gold ^_^

Thomas

  • DoomRL Wiki and Testing Ops
  • Elder Chaos Guard
  • Major General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 881
  • How's it going?
    • View Profile

I recently cranked out some N! AoB attempts and I'd say the bigger problem is the unbalanced difficulty between the 4 possible Phobos Entries.

The quoted one is the hardest, regardless of difficulty or challenge because of how open everything is and how close the two sergeants start. Also, this is the only one where you can play HNTR and still have to fight for the medpacks.

The second hardest is the really big castle-looking one. Again, it's very open. The difficulty is magnified on AoB where you can't fight the sergeants one at a time, unlike in the other two where you can normally fight the top one and sneak inside, leaving the bottom one alone.

The other two are quite similar in most aspects and are the easy two. Even on N! AoB, I can often do those two without taking a lot of damage, especially if the upper sergeant is nice to me, shooting me twice at long range and only once as I close in.

I would suggest changing the layout of both of the harder ones to give them more cover, and in the case of the hardest one to stretch it out a bit so you aren't fighting everything at once.

A quick example that I think would make the hardest one more similar to the easy two in difficulty:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(Red: Sergeants that appear on UV+, Blue: Humans that appear on HMP+)

Quick Edit: While I'm at it, why is "Frontal" togglable in the first place?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 23:14 by Thomas »
Logged
Arch-Vile Chaos Major Thomas
[26/26/26/25/9/1]
Medals: 35/43 Specials: 69/67 Assemblies: 36/40

fidsah

  • Greater Elder
  • Lance Corporal
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile

Quick Edit: While I'm at it, why is "Frontal" togglable in the first place?

I think this is exactly why it's an option. On lower difficulties, starting in the front is nice, because it's easier to get inside. On the tougher difficulties, starting out in the open can be pretty brutal depending on the mood of the RNG.
Logged

raekuul

  • Supporter
  • Brigadier General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 668
  • Storyteller Under The Bridge
    • View Profile
    • Veldania

I prefer to start frontal; it actually makes more sense plot-wise since you're coming off of a landing craft, and for most buildings there will be an entrance facing where it would be more convenient for people to enter from.

Playing-wise, it's more direct and it saves time.
Logged
Quote
Tormuse doesn't lose, he dies on purpose to lull the demons into a false sense of security.

Ander Hammer

  • Elder
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 385
  • burst laser rifle (2d10)x7 [80/80] (H1)
    • View Profile

Is there even a reason most of the layouts encourage the formers to pick up those medkits? It makes it a coin toss: either you'll get them, or enemies will pick them up and make you rage when they use them up. Barring the times you aren't lucky and nail them when they decide not to heal.
Logged
Hell Baron Major
[25|20|11|2|0]
Quest: bronzes/silvers i guess
[Inferno] ITYTD Win

Thomas

  • DoomRL Wiki and Testing Ops
  • Elder Chaos Guard
  • Major General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 881
  • How's it going?
    • View Profile

Is there even a reason most of the layouts encourage the formers to pick up those medkits? It makes it a coin toss: either you'll get them, or enemies will pick them up and make you rage when they use them up. Barring the times you aren't lucky and nail them when they decide not to heal.

ITYTD and HNTR - They should never pick them up, unless you spawn on the hardest phobos entry or you don't play with 'Frontal' toggled in the config.lua file.
HMP - Well son you're shit outta luck.
UV and N! - Once you get a shotgun, it forces you to think a bit more about where you're standing when you shoot the former humans. Moving around too much will just make you get shot a lot, but if you close in just right and only attack when you know you'll kill them in one shot, you can get the medpacks and still have enough health left to maybe do level 2 without having to use one of them.
Logged
Arch-Vile Chaos Major Thomas
[26/26/26/25/9/1]
Medals: 35/43 Specials: 69/67 Assemblies: 36/40

Game Hunter

  • Programmer
  • Local Inquisitor
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
  • Looks like game to me.
    • View Profile
    • Channel, the Roguelike

A couple things:

1. ITYTD and HNTR have different spawning rates. There are actually FEWER Former Humans (three) on the easiest difficulty. If you're losing med-packs at this difficulty, you're spending too much time star-gazing.

2. When I made those maps for the Wiki (quite recently, in fact) I did not know the actual locations of the humans and sergeants. These are estimates based on their locations once you get inside, along with other considerations (what doors have been opened, how quickly do you hear med-pack pickup, and so on). So these aren't PERFECT representations, but damned if they aren't accurate relative to each other.

That said, moving the Sergeants inside is a good idea, especially since it is more reasonable to remove the Frontal option and simply have the player start where they're supposed to start. You could also try other enemies (N! could have the last Sergeant replaced by a Nightmare Imp, for instance), or change them up depending on the challenge mode.
Logged
I'm just a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude.

Latest LPs: Angband, Delver

DeathDealer

  • Elder
  • Sergeant
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 91
  • Less Lost Soul
    • View Profile

On UV and N! I found the posted map to be by far the best when playing frontal AoB. It's the only one where you can take out every enemy without taking a single direct shot. Just run up to the two pillars and drop your armor/medpacks until one is visible to the enemies from between the two pillars and every single one will come wandering right up to you. It also let you try and take out the formers you suspected of sniping your medkits with their buddies lining up behind them. I prayed for that one because every other frontal setting screws you.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All