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[DeathDealer]

The following threads cover similar material, but I thought the whole idea was worth concisely targeting with a new post.

http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,4112.0.html


http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,4004.0.html

So.

Balance Discussion:
Obviously current balance and trait distribution would suggest that Ironman is plenty desirable without any advanced traits increasing its value. I play on  UV and N! exclusively (Ao100 right now, but most everything) and every build I find Ironman desirable.

In most runs (except Masochism and Pacifism) you don't see it unless it's a YAAM run or someone finished their attack capabilities first. It's usually a secondary priority, defense trait following the attack traits. While that is understandable and even expected from any game (almost every game encourages aggression over defensiveness) what I'd like to do is discuss advanced and/or master traits that could make Ironman a trait that people might reasonably expect to include in the first seven levels of a build.

---Advanced Trait---
Marathon Man
Prerequisite(s): Ironman(2)

"No pain, no gain. You've got inhuman endurance and thews that would make Conan cry. When you're tired you can always pick up the pace, no matter how much it hurts and even the heaviest armors don't slow your sprints."

Effects:
+ While tired the tactics command will return you to the running state at the cost of 5 damage.
+ Ignore armor speed reduction while running.
------

---Master Trait---
Juggernaut
Prerequisite(s): Marathon Man, Berserker
Blocks: Hellrunner, Eagle Eye, Son of a Bitch

"You're the Juggernaut bitch. With enough momentum nothing can withstand your punishing blows."

Effects:
+ When you hit an enemy in melee while running you deal additional damage* and become tired.
+ You can start running while berserk, although it doesn't increase your speed.
+ The Marathon Man benefits allow you to start running again while berserking, at the standard cost.

*I really don't know exactly what amount of damage is appropriate. My first thought would be to double the Brute damage bonus. My second would be to instead increase the damage by 30%.
------

Also I understand that what a Master trait blocks is often more controversial than what it does in the forums. Don't ask me, I don't want to discuss it. A quick breakdown of my thinking for these though.

Hellrunner is awesome enough without even running; if you are going to run the whole game it'd make you a speed demon, not a juggernaut. Eagle Eye is redundant for a melee build and makes a number of the non-melee weapons extraordinarily useful (plasma!) immediately on pickup; that's not the point of the build at all. Son of a Bitch overlaps Brute's territory and is really more of a slap on the wrist than the other two, primarily because the other two are such major restrictions.

Possible problems would be:
+ Speed run medals might need adjustment
+ Should any master traits block Ironman? Marathon Man?
+ Should this replace Blademaster? Do melee characters already have too many options?


Anyway, don't let my interpretations of what might be for Ironman influence you too much...tell me what YOU think!

[grommile]

The problem is that Ironman's competition for low-level slots isn't any of the offensive traits. Ironman's competition for low-level slots is Badass, and the two levels of TAN you need to get it.

[raekuul]

Agreed, but I do have one thing to point out. There doesn't need to be a master trait for every possible build. As it stands... well, read my sig and try it for yourself. All master traits block either Eagle Eye or Tough as Nails, and that combination plus Ironman seems to give me the best results.

[DeathDealer]

I agree with both of you, I just couldn't resist using the word Juggernaut and, well... everything just went all master-traity from there. I'm sort of scared of the game breaking potential of the advanced trait myself, forget the master one. I can't count how many times I lost 80% health when, if I hadn't been tired, it would have been 15%.

[Thomas]

Marathon Man is an excellent idea. I don't really like the concept of Juggernaut though, 2 melee-only master traits is plenty, anyway.

I think that there are a few other possibilities as far as making it a part of a master trait:
1. Don't change anything, no new master traits. Ironman is usually taken in the late game as an addendum to whatever build you're already using, so Marathon Man would just be the trait that you pick if you reach level 10.
2. Change the requirements of Blademaster to Marathon Man and Berserker, add "You can run while berserking" as another effect of Blademaster.
3. Remove Dodgemaster, add Marathon Man as a replacement. Maybe change the requirements from Ironman 2 to Hellrunner 2. Dodgemaster is one of my least favourite traits, only gotten if I need it at level 6 for a master trait. Marathon Man is much more interesting for a dodging character.

[DeathDealer]

2. Change the requirements of Blademaster to Marathon Man and Berserker, add "You can run while berserking" as another effect of Blademaster.

(1, Thomas) I'm fine without any new master traits, although I believe there's acknowledged issues with Ammochain and Blademaster. The main reason I suggested Juggernuat was as a possible Blademaster replacement or inspiration for tweaking (as you suggested in 2,3).

(2, Thomas) I think running while berserking would be overkill, at least it would be with Hellrunner available too. I also have this theory that it's been mentioned a lot to Kornel and rejected a lot, otherwise it would already be part of the game.

(3, Thomas) I love the idea of replacing Dodgemaster with Marathon Man as a Blademaster prerequisite, but I can't see Dodgemaster getting removed from the game. So Marathon Man would probably still have Ironman 2 requirements. In that case it would probably be easier to just change how long a Blademaster berserked or give them a flat movement speed of ~.3 while berserk and set their state as running (and make them tired afterwards), as opposed to the normal .4 from a coding standpoint.

Question: Does berserking actually slow you down if you are already moving faster than .4?

[Thomas]

Question: Does berserking actually slow you down if you are already moving faster than .4?

Kornel once said that there was a bug where if you had a very low move delay and you went berserk, every step you take would actually send you backwards in time, so I'm not sure if it's as simple as this.

[tehtmi]

Y'know, I think I'm the one who original put that the move speed goes to 0.4 in berserk.  It turns out I was wrong.

Let me first say -- the berserk speed modifier is weird, but I think I know more or less how it works now. (Please forgive any inaccuracy.)

If you understand how "energy" works, basically the player gets an extra 400 energy whenever his action comes up. To prevent problems, you won't get this bonus again until your energy actually drops below 5000.

The upshot is this:
1) actions that take >= 0.5s are reduced by 0.4s. This includes ALL actions!
2) for shorter actions, the player sometimes gets "instant turns" interspersed with turns that take no more than the normal amount of time. Shorter actions get more instant turns.

Hmmm, time to update the wiki.

EDIT: 2) wasn't quite accurate; it's hard to describe, but I tried to fix it.

[DeathDealer]

Thanks for the update. That makes running while berserk seem much more plausible in terms of coding at least.

[Fanta Hege]

I might be a bit late to the party, but I figured since this was still in the first page I'd post this here;

Medicine man
(recruires ironman 1)
Each time you use a medpack, the turn you used it on will be treated as if you were running.

Simple little buff up, allows you to get more use from your medpack when you're in a bad position.

[DeathDealer]

Along similar lines, using a medpack instantly would have saved me from death a number of times...