Chaosforge Forum

  • November 29, 2020, 15:17
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.



Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: General Strategy Questions from a Newbie  (Read 3136 times)

The Page

  • Lance Corporal
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 26
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
General Strategy Questions from a Newbie
« on: August 03, 2011, 05:30 »

I've been playing this game on and off for a few months now, and despite all of this I'm still ludicrously awful at it, having only beaten the game twice recently - both on ITYTD (one of which was a botched Lava Element/Nuke attempt on the Cyberdemon, which was pretty ridiculous). I've been mostly playing on HNTR and HMP nowadays, mainly using Ammochain (SoB->SoB->TH->TH->Rel->Rel->MAc->HR->HR->TH or SoB->SoB->TH->TH->Rel->Rel->MAc->Fin->Fin->WK) with mixed results (read: burned to cinders by Arch-viles over and over again, sometimes with the humiliating event of a lost soul or former sergeant getting the kill).

I've got a few questions for you veteran players about other builds, and also Ammochain itself. Considering MAc means there are no defensive traits, have I been doing the right thing by Power and Bulk modding Red Armor, considering the trait is really more oriented towards killing everything before it can kill you? Is it worth it not being able to dodge worth a penny? And, since I've never used Cateye, is Cateye really something considered an awesome trait that shouldn't be passed up? It seems like being able to spot things some time before they spot you and then hosing them down with plasma is a great advantage - but then, Plasma Rifles eat ammo like cheap candy, which is primarily the reason I use Ammochain.

Also, shotguns. Is MAD a good trait to have, or should I ditch it for something involving Whizkid and Cateye? I've found the Assault and Tactical Shotguns really useful what with the whole 6-shell clip, but then I've only gotten up to lvl 20 with shotguns, getting mauled by Arachnotrons or Revenants or Arch-viles. Would, say, getting in their faces with a Double Shotgun be viable, or is Cateye really the way to go in this particular case?

Thanks! (I was wondering if I should put this in the Battle Odds and Strategic Advice thread but the OP of that thread said it was for specific situations and strategy, rather than general advice)
Logged

Thomas

  • DoomRL Wiki and Testing Ops
  • Elder Chaos Guard
  • Major General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 881
  • How's it going?
    • View Profile
Re: General Strategy Questions from a Newbie
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2011, 06:55 »

Armour has no effect on dodge chance, only move speed. The two have no relation to eachother, aside from the fact that slow movement means you might need to dodge two shots in one turn. Because of this, pretty much any mod (except tech) on red is a good choice for someone with MAc, cause they don't have any need for movement during combat, and any dodging done will most likely be in very short bursts to get behind cover or down stairs.

Cateye is generally less liked than Ammochain, although it does give quick access to Intuition 2 which is a huge boon. If you're going for 100% kills, MAc is definitely superior, otherwise you could make a decent case for using Cateye and Intuition 2 to avoid more dangerous fights.

MAD is good for pure shotgun runs (remember to get Bad before SM). However, once a decent rocket launcher (Tactical, Micro, Missile) gets involved, the more generic Fin->Fin->(Wiz maybe)->TaN->TaN->Bad->Iro->Iro->Iro starts to shine.

The double shotgun is one of the worse weapons in the game, although it definitely has a place in the MAD pure shotgun build. The FOCUSED double shotgun however is ridiculously good, but you need both Wizkid and Shottyman to really make it shine, and that's a lot of survivability to give up.
Logged
Arch-Vile Chaos Major Thomas
[26/26/26/25/9/1]
Medals: 35/43 Specials: 69/67 Assemblies: 36/40

Game Hunter

  • Programmer
  • Elder Chaos Guard
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
  • Looks like game to me.
    • View Profile
    • Channel, the Roguelike
Re: General Strategy Questions from a Newbie
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2011, 10:51 »

Considering MAc means there are no defensive traits, have I been doing the right thing by Power and Bulk modding Red Armor, considering the trait is really more oriented towards killing everything before it can kill you?
Ammchain is an offensive trait, yes, although the implications of infinite ammo certainly give you an advatage for defensive purposes, specifically what tends to be called "tactical defense". Since you have as much ammo as you could want, you're also allowed to waste as much ammo as you want in the form of corner-shooting and radar-shooting. This means in situations where you can't see the enemy but can theoretically hit it, you're better off hiding in a position that lets you shoot in their direction. Naturally speed won't matter in these situations.

Is it worth it not being able to dodge worth a penny?
If you really need the ability to dodge, technically you can take the armor off. The 15% dodge chance and 15% movespeed bonus on Hellrunner are actually the same thing (at least according to some people with source privileges), which implies that movespeed and dodge chance are directly related. It really depends on what you're trying to dodge, though: naturally VMR packs won't do you much good, but Barons/HKs/Cacos will. I'd probably keep the armor on for Arachs and Commandos, even though it burns though your armor, just because they hurt that much more without any.

And, since I've never used Cateye, is Cateye really something considered an awesome trait that shouldn't be passed up?
I'm a fan of Cateye. It flows naturally from key rapid-fire  traits, SoB and EE, and that extra vision can really makes things easy on non-segmented floors. Ammochain is great because you can then afford to carry lots of extra gear, but you're also forcing some agility mods on your weapons, an entirely unnecessary part of Cateye builds (and pretty significant when you think about what else can be done with those agility mods). The difficulty lies in having ammo, but that's why it's a good idea to keep a chaingun and dual-stock on bullets and plasma. As superior a weapon as the plasma rifle is, a properly-modded or assembled chaingun can be more than sufficient.

Is MAD a good trait to have, or should I ditch it for something involving Whizkid and Cateye? Would, say, getting in their faces with a Double Shotgun be viable, or is Cateye really the way to go in this particular case?
Army of the Dead is a passive offensive master, basically giving you extra damage on your attacks. To this extent, you can't really play a very open shotgun game, relying mostly on the combat shotgun and corner-shooting (although close corners let you whip out the double). Power-modding a shotgun, however, can be just as powerful, and some of the shotgun assemblies are ferocious. It really depends on the type of game you're facing: if you want high kills AND on a hard difficulty, MAD is probably for you. For anything else, SM/WK or MFa (or both) are plenty reasonable.  (Mind you, Cateye as a shotgun build is mostly useless: shotguns are completely unaffected by accuracy, so the extra vision will do nothing for your damage.)
Logged
I'm just a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude.

Latest LPs: Angband, Delver

The Page

  • Lance Corporal
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 26
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: General Strategy Questions from a Newbie
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2011, 23:56 »

Thanks for the advice, guys! I'll need to practice corner and radar shooting before I'm actually feeling confident enough to attempt another set of shotgun runs.
Logged

Sambojin

  • First Lieutenant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 223
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: General Strategy Questions from a Newbie
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2011, 19:11 »

Try 0.9.9.4

It has so far felt as though the game is quite a bit easier as long as you have some slight plan (don't die) and some inventory management skill (keep some ammo and guns and stuff). I've only been playing since 0.9.9.1, but the more options we've gotten, the more chances to succeed we have.

I haven't even tried to play an ammochain build yet. But I can definately say that it's not the strongest build out there anymore. Good, but try some of the other master traits in the new version. They're amazing (even the class system + easy advanced traits makes it a lot easier on us).

For corner shooting practice, try a Scout with two levels of Intuition. You can start to find out EXACTLY what the various forms of shotgun can and can't hit. Without it going all terminally bad for you if you're wrong.

As a question: Is that whole move speed/dodge chance thing correct? Are a litter of Ag mods on boots/armour equivalent to extra dodge chance as long as I moved to dodge (ie: diagonally or perpendicular to the firing angle)? Is it additive or multiplicative to the running dodge chance?
Logged

Thomas

  • DoomRL Wiki and Testing Ops
  • Elder Chaos Guard
  • Major General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 881
  • How's it going?
    • View Profile
Re: General Strategy Questions from a Newbie
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2011, 02:27 »

Movespeed and dodge chance are independant of eachother, although being able to move faster will indirectly help you dodge shots (less shots fired at you per move and therefore less chance of dying if you roll low on most of your dodges)

Most people will go for tactical boots (but not necessarily tactical armour) anyway because of how infrequently the protection value of your boots is useful.
Logged
Arch-Vile Chaos Major Thomas
[26/26/26/25/9/1]
Medals: 35/43 Specials: 69/67 Assemblies: 36/40

gunofdis

  • Lance Corporal
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
Re: General Strategy Questions from a Newbie
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2011, 03:15 »

The resistances on tactical armor make it a lot stronger early on than it used to be.  It's pretty much blue armor vs formers.
Logged

Errant

  • Lance Corporal
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
Re: General Strategy Questions from a Newbie
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2011, 03:44 »


Most people will go for tactical boots (but not necessarily tactical armour) anyway because of how infrequently the protection value of your boots is useful.

I dunno about this. The only real advantage is KB resist and regen when you toss the second mod on to create tactical boots. You may or may not even want KB resist, and, as you say, when was the last time you wore out a pair of boots? I don't think it's ever happened to me. Why not just use better boots with one agility mod and save an agility mod? You still get the movespeed bonus, and that's why most of us wanted the tactical boots in the first place. Plus you can still add more mods with Whizkid if you want later.
Logged

action52

  • Elder
  • Sergeant
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 62
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: General Strategy Questions from a Newbie
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2011, 05:26 »

I dunno about this. The only real advantage is KB resist and regen when you toss the second mod on to create tactical boots. You may or may not even want KB resist, and, as you say, when was the last time you wore out a pair of boots? I don't think it's ever happened to me. Why not just use better boots with one agility mod and save an agility mod? You still get the movespeed bonus, and that's why most of us wanted the tactical boots in the first place. Plus you can still add more mods with Whizkid if you want later.

It's happened to me a few times. Lava will destroy iron boots very quickly. It happened a few times in the Halls of Carnage--this was back before the lava wall, so I could afford to run back and forth over the lava. All those supercharges made it easy to forget that I was destroying my boots. I actually used to take off my boots so I didn't have to worry about them.

But you are right about the extra mod not being worth it. It still isn't that hard to keep from losing boots, and they're easily replaced.

The thing is, in version 0.9.9.3 they gave you a speed boost of 20%, which was awesome. Combine that with the fact that they regenerate, and that protection from boots usually isn't all THAT important, and that it gave you a huge advantage very early in the game, and you had arguably the best assembly in the whole game. I guess they decided it was TOO good, so they nerfed it down to 10%... which is exactly the same as a single agility mod. So now we're going to put on an extra agility mod on, just so that we can have our iron boots regenerate? Especially now that the later boots have resistance in addition to their higher defense. Basically it went from being one of the best assemblies in the game to one of the worst.

So back then it was always worth it to put the extra agility mod onto boots. Now... it almost never is.
Logged
Pages: [1]