Chaosforge Forum

  • August 14, 2022, 05:53
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.



Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: DoomRL featured on Roguelike Radio!  (Read 17910 times)

Kornel Kisielewicz

  • God Hand
  • Apostle
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4551
    • View Profile
    • http://chaosforge.org/
DoomRL featured on Roguelike Radio!
« on: September 20, 2011, 07:08 »

DoomRL has been featured on Roguelike Radio!

http://roguelikeradio.blogspot.com/

Roguelike Radio is a weekly podcast about roguelikes, where big names of the Roguelike scene dissect and talk about popular modern roguelike games. Be sure not only to check out the recent DoomRL episode as well as former episodes about Brogue, Cardinal Quest and Desktop Dungeons!

The DoomRL episode was quite full of critique, especially arguing that DoomRL has strayed away from it's simple coffeebreak roots, which the podcasters consider a bad thing. What is your opinion? State it on the Roguelike Radio blog, and help out with DoomRL's future direction!

http://roguelikeradio.blogspot.com/2011/09/episode-4-doomrl.html

Logged
at your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz

ParaSait

  • Baffen :P
  • Elder
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
  • Happy Little Boozer
    • View Profile
    • MPSF
Re: DoomRL featured on Roguelike Radio!
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2011, 07:43 »

Cool :D!
Yeah, DoomRL sure isn't really a coffeebreak game anymore. But I think that's alright; despite being still quite simple for a roguelike (in that you learn how to play it quickly), it has a achieved an immense replayability and a rather unique kind of complexity for games of its kind. I certainly don't consider that a bad thing.
Let's just say DoomRL has evolved from a simple coffeebreak roguelike, to a complete hobby on its own. :P
Logged
[18|7|3|0|0|0] [MED:13/43] [SPE:36/67] [ASM:11/40]

Check out my epic youtube channel!
Currently playing The Bard's Tale and System Shock 2 (coop with GrAV1t)!

Kornel Kisielewicz

  • God Hand
  • Apostle
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4551
    • View Profile
    • http://chaosforge.org/
Re: DoomRL featured on Roguelike Radio!
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2011, 07:52 »

ParaSait, post that (and expand it) on the Roguelike Radio blog -- because I think you have a point there too!
Logged
at your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz

Darren Grey

  • Lead Plot Writer
  • DevTeam
  • First Lieutenant
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 235
  • The Voice in Your Head
    • View Profile
    • Games of Grey
Re: DoomRL featured on Roguelike Radio!
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2011, 08:17 »

Perhaps it has bad PR, since people expect it to be a coffeebreak  ;)

I'm curious as to what regulars here think about the unlocks though.  I really could dig the game a lot more if I had instant access to the content I want.  Does it not frustrate others when switching between computers, or when you have to do a reinstall?  Does it not make it harder to introduce to your friends?

And the interface could do with a bit of work too, in my opinion, just to streamline the gameplay a little more.  Mouse support is not particularly hard to implement in FreePascal, and I think it could add a tonne to how quick the game plays.  Left click move, right click fire, middle click reload - damned fiends can get blasted back to hell without me having to glance at my keyboard!  Inventory should perhaps be looked at - stack all ammo together, reduce inven size, and combine the inventory and eq screens so you can compare things easier.  Or just add an equipment comparison box in the inventory screen.  Change the modified description on items to just "mod" so it doesn't cut off on the right.  Lots of other little tweaks can be made to make playing the game that bit more pleasant.
Logged

MaiZure

  • Marketing/PR Ops Lead
  • Greater Elder
  • Major General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 827
  • Retired 1-Star General (.993)
    • View Profile
    • Project repository
Re: DoomRL featured on Roguelike Radio!
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2011, 08:53 »

Thanks for the air time Darren - even if we don't see eye to eye. Good program!

As for your points, I'll be brief and I'm sure everyone else will follow up with a book on the subject...

I'm curious as to what regulars here think about the unlocks though.  I really could dig the game a lot more if I had instant access to the content I want.  Does it not frustrate others when switching between computers, or when you have to do a reinstall?  Does it not make it harder to introduce to your friends?

I'm decent enough at the game to unlock all the features within the first 10 runs, and prior to this version probably in the first 5. As for the computer switching, my permanent profile and game are stored on my keychain flash drive so I always have it. Introducing it to my friends hasn't been too much of a problem because they seem to stuggle enough with the default content to not worry about the actual challenge modes. Actually, you self impose most of the restrictions and get the same experience in a standard game (not Ao100 though). Also, I believe that you can probably unlock most of the feature without even beating the game since a lot of the early reqs involve beating special levels and getting to level 12 on the first 3 challenge modes.

I don't have much to say about the UI except that I'm 'used' to it. I agree that the UI is probably key to keeping a new player interested.
Logged
Hell Knight 1st Lt. (.997)
[22/13/9/2/0]

Game Hunter

  • Programmer
  • Elder Chaos Guard
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
  • Looks like game to me.
    • View Profile
    • Channel, the Roguelike
Re: DoomRL featured on Roguelike Radio!
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2011, 09:07 »

MaiZure really called that one!

I'm curious as to what regulars here think about the unlocks though.  I really could dig the game a lot more if I had instant access to the content I want.  Does it not frustrate others when switching between computers, or when you have to do a reinstall?  Does it not make it harder to introduce to your friends?
To begin, player records have been compatible since 0.9.9.0, and KK has said that he will continue to make this work for subsequent versions. Furthermore, the records are also backed up multiple times by default (and they're as easy to move around as copying the player.wad and score.wad files to the other directory). Thus, there shouldn't be detrimental problems with moving to another computer or reinstalling unless the entire DoomRL directory was corrupted or removed. In other words, if you've played a few weeks, you should have everything unlocked, and it can stay with you for as long as you like.

I never keep my records from version to version, but it doesn't matter much anyway since it's quite easy to unlock everything within a few (successful) playthroughs, which shouldn't take more than a few hours. For beginners this isn't as easy to do, but they can keep their records from previous versions if they want everything unlocked as it was before. It's not like there are radical changes to the gameplay with the challenge modes: at most the Angel of Pacifism and 100 could appeal to different types of players, but I highly doubt they'd be any good at them unless they could handle the normal game well enough first. (Other challenges modes, like Angel of Markmanship, Shottgunnery, Impatience, and Purity, can be imitated simply by limiting yourself manually.) The only other unlocks that would be annoying are assembly schematics, but if you're learned a good deal of them before then you can either head over to the Wiki (where they are fully documented) or boot up an old version, write down the recipes somewhere, and use that to make them.

Overall I'm not too concerned about unlocks, but I'm not sure that regular is a good person to ask. If beginners really hate it, I've yet to hear some complaints. (So this would be a place for to say it if they think that!)

And the interface could do with a bit of work too, in my opinion, just to streamline the gameplay a little more.  1)Mouse support is not particularly hard to implement in FreePascal, and I think it could add a tonne to how quick the game plays.  Left click move, right click fire, middle click reload - damned fiends can get blasted back to hell without me having to glance at my keyboard!  2)Inventory should perhaps be looked at - stack all ammo together, reduce inven size, and combine the inventory and eq screens so you can compare things easier.  Or just add an equipment comparison box in the inventory screen.  3)Change the modified description on items to just "mod" so it doesn't cut off on the right.  Lots of other little tweaks can be made to make playing the game that bit more pleasant.

1) Mouse support sounds...awkward. The non-movement makes sense, but moving would either have to be done step-by-step (which is a PAIN for a mouse) or uses auto-run, which could be very disorienting. Note that a lot of movement in DoomRL isn't just going from place to place, as there is plenty of tactical maneuvering involved, and using the mouse for these careful actions may not be ideal (in the same way that trying to play the original with the mouse was extremely awkward for strafing/turning). One thing we could likely attempt to emphasize is the run-mode button, which lets you speed off in a given direction: this can significantly affect the game's pace (in a good way) if used properly. I actually set up my run button for numpad5 (using the numpad for movement) and it allows for a very streamlined usage.

2) The ammo-stack and inventory sizes are actually a part of game strategy, so I'm not too keen to change them for the sake of improving UI. Admittedly it's a little clunky, but you get fairly used to it (in the same way you get used to other game's inventories...at least here the inventory is strictly limited to a single page).

3)This is a definite improvement without real drawbacks, so I see no reason not to do it. (At least, I think people will realize that "mod" stands for "modified" when it shows up that way in-game.)

Really though, any suggestions you have, any at all, should be posted without delay. I agree that there are a lot of really tiny flaws here and there that, when collectively fixed, could remarkably decrease UI distractions from the gameplay. Usually they're either so rare or so small that I forget to post when I think of it and forget, but they are no less important than the other things that are changed over time.
Logged
I'm just a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude.

Latest LPs: Angband, Delver

Darren Grey

  • Lead Plot Writer
  • DevTeam
  • First Lieutenant
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 235
  • The Voice in Your Head
    • View Profile
    • Games of Grey
Re: DoomRL featured on Roguelike Radio!
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2011, 03:38 »

Unlocks: I think a couple of hours to get numerous unlocks is too much, and having to fiddle with files to keep your unlocks is a fair bit of hassle.

Regarding getting assembly mechanics from the wiki, I think this is pretty bad game design myself.  You shouldn't have to spoil yourself to get access to such content.  Especially in such a relatively light game which is otherwise very transparent in its mechanics.  In general the modding system is pretty opaque for new players and could do with a bit better in-game explanation.

Mouse movement I can understand not being perfect - in general keyboard is faster and more accurate.  However it does help new players adjust in.  I mostly suggest mouse support for aiming though, as I think it can be preferable in many circumstances.  Having both movement and targeting (with movement done well - it can be done well) also has the advantage of being able to play one-handed, enjoying a lovely cup of tea in the other hand as you slaughter your way through the depths of hell.

Inventory size limit is part of the tactics, but amount of ammo doesn't seem to be (at least in the current version).  Lessen ammo space and lessen inventory size wouldn't change the game much from its current balance.  Though I defer to more experienced players' opinions on this matter!

I mentioned on the podcast that I was surprised to see little emphasis on UI and polish in the Requests subforum.  Perhaps this is something for the community in general to consider when playing.  I think that maximising the number of people that can enjoy the game is important, and core to that is making it easy to get into.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 03:40 by Darren Grey »
Logged

Malek Deneith

  • Grand Inquisitor Emeritus
  • Grand Inquisitor
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1256
    • View Profile
Re: DoomRL featured on Roguelike Radio!
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2011, 04:04 »

Regarding assemblies - aside from dumb luck or spoiling yourself there is also in-game mechanic that lets you learn assemblies. Namely after beating the monster released by lever in Armory special level you get a schematics powerup that teaches you one assembly you don't currently know.
Logged
Inquisition - saving your soul, one bolter shell at a time.
Spoiler: "Hackmaster Kills" (click to show/hide)

Darren Grey

  • Lead Plot Writer
  • DevTeam
  • First Lieutenant
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 235
  • The Voice in Your Head
    • View Profile
    • Games of Grey
Re: DoomRL featured on Roguelike Radio!
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2011, 07:45 »

Uh, but surely you have to be spoiled to even know that?  Y'know I wouldn't mind if the assemblies were randomised each game and there were more ways to find combos (as well as trial and error of course).  But I'm guessing that as is *every* player consults the wiki for assemblies, apart from the few they know off by heart due to experience.  It's a bit like if Nethack's potions had the same unided description every game.
Logged

Game Hunter

  • Programmer
  • Elder Chaos Guard
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
  • Looks like game to me.
    • View Profile
    • Channel, the Roguelike
Re: DoomRL featured on Roguelike Radio!
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2011, 08:19 »

Unlocks: I think a couple of hours to get numerous unlocks is too much, and having to fiddle with files to keep your unlocks is a fair bit of hassle.
Ideally this problem will be solved once we establish a server that can keep track of players who connect to it while playing the game. The server is actually THERE, so it's now a matter of setting it up and adding the necessary sofware-based infrastructure. This will also be a place to quickly find and use modules.

Unlocks (at least as they are known here) will probably be gone in DRL2's classic mode, which will let you pick just about any combination. Talking about it HERE is moot, I know. I suppose I don't see a reason to keep them around, but I personally enjoyed having to work for additional options.

Regarding getting assembly mechanics from the wiki, I think this is pretty bad game design myself.  You shouldn't have to spoil yourself to get access to such content.  Especially in such a relatively light game which is otherwise very transparent in its mechanics.  In general the modding system is pretty opaque for new players and could do with a bit better in-game explanation.

...I wouldn't mind if the assemblies were randomised each game and there were more ways to find combos (as well as trial and error of course).  But I'm guessing that as is *every* player consults the wiki for assemblies, apart from the few they know off by heart due to experience.  It's a bit like if Nethack's potions had the same unided description every game.
Perhaps it's because I happen to be pretty good at this sort of thing, but I was able to learn nearly all of the basic assemblies without any prior knowledge by simply testing possibilities in a few games. The advanced and master assemblies are more likely to require Armory runs (where you can find "schematics") but those are really powerful anyway, so this is somewhat justified (in the same way that exotics and uniques are rare to come across). I believe the inspiration of assemblies came from Diablo II with its "rune words", and they work almost identically, the only real difference being that the player is locked out of some assemblies unless they have points in Whizkid.

That said, assemblies do stick out like a sore thumb in a game that, as I said previously, lays all its cards on the table. It may be a good idea to consider revising their principal functionality. (ID randomization for this game, however, is a huge no: being able to focus on adaptable tactics, rather than resources, is part of DoomRL's distinction and charm.)

Also, ammo amount is definitely part of the tactics, trust me. Running out is VERY possible on harder difficulties, since it's easy to run through a few stacks on a single level without being able to replenish it. A lot of the late-game frustration is caused by running out of your ammo of choice, even if you end up well-stocked early on. Overall I'd like to see a more uniform distribution of ammunition, such that you have to worry about its usage, but not the bad luck of five floors in a row without restocking.

I'll defer significant UI changes to the development team, as I personally have no qualms with the system as-is. Mouse movement sounds interesting enough to consider, though I don't know if they'll want to take the time to add it when there's so many other things to work on.
Logged
I'm just a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude.

Latest LPs: Angband, Delver

Malek Deneith

  • Grand Inquisitor Emeritus
  • Grand Inquisitor
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1256
    • View Profile
Re: DoomRL featured on Roguelike Radio!
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2011, 08:45 »

Uh, but surely you have to be spoiled to even know that?
Not really, no. Unless you're actively avoiding special levels you'll visit Armory sooner or later. After that's it's simply matter of pulling a lever, surviving the miniboss and then picking up the powerup (it spawns near the exit so it's not missable). It might take you a few games to stumble upon, but you don't have to spoil yourself.
Logged
Inquisition - saving your soul, one bolter shell at a time.
Spoiler: "Hackmaster Kills" (click to show/hide)

void*

  • Elder
  • Private FC
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: DoomRL featured on Roguelike Radio!
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2011, 06:21 »

I never keep my records from version to version, but it doesn't matter much anyway since it's quite easy to unlock everything within a few (successful) playthroughs, which shouldn't take more than a few hours.

This is a bit off topic, as I don't really care much about the unlocks, but as a side-note I must say I find it funny that you consider "a few hours" a short time...

With full time work and plenty of other obligations on my time I rarely spend a few hours per week playing games altogether (not to mention playing a single game for a few hours at a time).

Add to that the indie-games explosion of the past few years, with the sheer bulk of really good cheap or free games it had brought, and most games don't get a few hours of play from me in total .

Basically only games I really liked do, and DoomRL is one of the very few games that I've played for longer than that.

I also see this attitude with others here, like Malek claiming it only takes "a few games" to learn assemblies - a few games is what most players will ever play before moving to the next game...

It's basically the same "mistake" I feel the DCSS team has made, with concentrating on stuff mostly only advanced player will ever see: a ton more people will play levels 1-10 than 15-25 and it would be wise IMO to make sure these levels are as interesting as possible.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 06:30 by void* »
Logged

Malek Deneith

  • Grand Inquisitor Emeritus
  • Grand Inquisitor
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1256
    • View Profile
Re: DoomRL featured on Roguelike Radio!
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2011, 07:19 »

void - while I can see some truth in your argument about balancing the game with thought of advanced players (I do admit I tend to feel this is the case at times myself), I think you're confusing skill (the normal vs advanced player scale) with free time.

I am not 'advanced' player. None at all, and I am first to admit it. Yet I have seen good deal of endgame features, simply because I have the time to spend on the game. Now I know not every one has the time - you yourself admitted you don't have it, and I understand how life can severely limit the time available for gaming and other luxuries. But that's not a problem with the game. Some games are aimed at the, excuse me the term but it feels appropiate here, 'casual' player, some do not.

Roguelikes in general tend to be aimed at players that have the time to spend playing them, or at least have some sort of commitment, meaning that they'll continue spending the time they can over and extended period of, well, time. DoomRL might have started as a game more suited for casual players (hence the original 'coffebreak' label), but has since moved way past that. The only way that it could return to that state right now is if Kornel took an axe to it and started to remove features en masse, and I doubt that'd make anyone happy. About the only thing we could do is to remove the 'coffebreak' from description, because as most agree it does not apply any longer.
Logged
Inquisition - saving your soul, one bolter shell at a time.
Spoiler: "Hackmaster Kills" (click to show/hide)

void*

  • Elder
  • Private FC
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: DoomRL featured on Roguelike Radio!
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2011, 02:32 »

I am not 'advanced' player. None at all, and I am first to admit it. Yet I have seen good deal of endgame features, simply because I have the time to spend on the game. Now I know not every one has the time - you yourself admitted you don't have it, and I understand how life can severely limit the time available for gaming and other luxuries. But that's not a problem with the game. Some games are aimed at the, excuse me the term but it feels appropiate here, 'casual' player, some do not.


That doesn't mean you shouldn't still keep an eye on not wasting the players' time tho- I think it's one of the most important aspects of game design: give the player a meaningful experience and don't waste their time!
Logged

Malek Deneith

  • Grand Inquisitor Emeritus
  • Grand Inquisitor
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1256
    • View Profile
Re: DoomRL featured on Roguelike Radio!
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2011, 03:50 »

Ah, but "wasting the time" is a bit subjective, don't you think? To you, it seems, figuring out assemblies by trial or schematics is "waste of your time" and early levels don't seem to have "meaningful experience". I am on the opposite side of the scale - for me trying to figure things like assemblies, or acquiring them via schematics is fun experience, and I find enough enjoyment in early levels to justify playign the game. In the DoomRL community at large we could find people who'd agree with me, people who'd agree with you and people who'd fall somewhere in between. I don't really think it's possible to please everybody. If you keep returning to the game than I'd say you found your "meaningful experience" already, or at least some semblance of it - after all there is something in the game that makes you play it.
Logged
Inquisition - saving your soul, one bolter shell at a time.
Spoiler: "Hackmaster Kills" (click to show/hide)
Pages: [1] 2  All