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[GrimmC]

Seeing how Torumse annihilated Marksman Diamond with some decidedly non-marksman like tactics (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,4804.0.html) got me wondering if perhaps Berserker and Vampyre should be revised. Of course, there's also the time that Blahness broke the game with the gravity boots: http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,4327.0.html Maybe .2/sec a move was the biggest help, but a berserk which lasted the rest of the game certainly didn't hurt either. (Safely farmed from the City of Skulls.)

So yeah, I think we should reexamine these two traits. I'll just quote myself to make it easy:

Perhaps Berserker and Vampyre should be revised. I like the idea behind them, and I think they're fair in theory--certainly in a AoB run. But when you also have the ability to destroy enemies from a distance in a hybrid build, it does tend to make the game a bit easy...My HNTR Vampyre build was certainly the easiest run I ever did.

Moreover, the fact that it turns Pain Elementals into roving berserk/health stations certainly is a bit much. On the other hand, could argue that this is the possibility you always have in Nightmare!, ala the way Tormuse saved himself earlier. Perhaps we should move discussion to another thread?

Game Hunter also supplied some feedback which can be found at the same thread, but I wanted to quote this:

It could be as simple as making it so that enemies without experience don't grant benefits such as the ones from Vampyre.

I didn't mention this before, but I was also thinking something like this. On the other hand, I don't mind the idea that resurrected enemies could trigger these traits in Nightmare! If you're really a crazy blood-sucking marine, and enemies are rising from the dead...what's the problem with siphoning their health again?

A solution could be that Pain Elementals spit out enemies which otherwise are identical to Lost Souls, but don't trigger the these traits. However, I never play Nightmare!, so perhaps it should be nerfed for respawned enemies as well....



Please, discuss!

[Deathwind]

lost souls have no physical bodies right? if that's the case how are you drinking their blood anyway?

[Game Hunter]

Of course, there's also the time that Blahness broke the game with the gravity boots: http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,4327.0.html Maybe .2/sec a move was the biggest help, but a berserk which lasted the rest of the game certainly didn't hurt either. (Safely farmed from the City of Skulls.)

At this point, these two concerns have already been accounted for:

• Berserk no longer changes the player's energy count but simply provides a speed bonus like everything else. Unless you manage to get more than one action per turn the hard way (that is, <0.10s for that action) you won't be seeing sub-turn movement.
• The more zerk you currently have, the less that the Berserker effect actually gives you. This caps around 100 actions, so you need to keep yourself killing while you're moving now.

I think it could be justifiable that Lost Souls don't give you leeched health (or maybe just a reduced amount since there's a nonzero life-force residing in them), and it would certainly prevent a large portion of the Vampyre exploitation allowed currently. Combine that with "no XP = no leech" and Vampyre gets a big farming nerf (and really, any nerf to farming is a good thing).

As for a Berserker change (although, frankly, this much of a change to Vampyre would probably fix the current trend all by itself), I would consider two things:

• Change the requirements for activation from hit-based to kill-based. Right now we have a system where X hits will activate the effect, which is at a maximum of four and becomes less with more enemies in sight. Personally I think kill-based (that is, kill something and it activates) is simpler to understand and easier to consider when faced with a tactical decision.
• Switch the order of damage and activation. The way it is now, you can activate the Berserker effect if you're hit with something that causes at least 10 damage and chips away at least 1/3 of your maximum health: however, the effect applies BEFORE damage is done, which is basically like giving the player a special type of armor: if we reverse the order (player takes damage, berserk activates) then it's changes from being a shield that prevents any serious damage to an emergency barrier that already assumes you've sustained said damage.

I don't know if these are the only changes necessary, but I believe they're a step in the right direction.

[Deathwind]

A bit more proof that something here needs to be nerfed...

http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,3054.msg39019.html#msg39019

[Zalminen]

• Change the requirements for activation from hit-based to kill-based. Right now we have a system where X hits will activate the effect, which is at a maximum of four and becomes less with more enemies in sight. Personally I think kill-based (that is, kill something and it activates) is simpler to understand and easier to consider when faced with a tactical decision.

Nooo...
If you could only activate berserk by killing something I still wouldn't have any melee victories as I always lost the previous berserk way before getting to Cybie and it reactivated during the final battle...

[Game Hunter]

... I always lost the previous berserk way before getting to Cybie and it reactivated during the final battle...

There is, of course, a very elegant solution to this problem (which, to my knowledge, is the only serious case of kill-based zerk making the game unfairly difficult) and that is to include enemies on the Phobos Arena. Anyone who's played the original Tower of Babel map knows that randomly spawning a few Lost Souls here and there (maybe more with increased difficulty) would not only make the level more like its predecessor but make it harder AND more probable for kill-based zerk. It's a win-win, really.

On the other hand, the passive Berserker effect of being hit by a sufficiently-damaging attack is still very possible against the Cyberdemon, who deals 6d6 damage (averages 18, which is more than one third of the base 50). So it's still quite doable, you just have to bring some supplies with you.

Every other case (Angel of Death, Shambler, Lava Elemental) can be done with strategy created especially for them. I'm not too worried about lack of capability to activate the effect if it's kill-based.