Chaosforge Forum

  • March 28, 2024, 23:33
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.



Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: [H|AoSh|95%|23|YASD] Sniping that Arch-Viles is totally safe!  (Read 3087 times)

Kvaak

  • Elder
  • Private FC
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (v.0.9.9.4) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Seppo, level 11 Cacodemon Lance Corporal Scout,
 incinerated by an arch-vile on level 23 of the Phobos base.
 He survived 125741 turns and scored 121446 points.
 He played for 2 hours, 8 minutes and 30 seconds.
 He wasn't afraid to be hurt plenty.

 He killed 823 out of 860 hellspawn. (95%)
 He held his right to remain violent.
 He was an Angel of Shotgunnery!

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 10
  Levels visited   : 7
  Levels completed : 3

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  Grim Reaper's Badge
  UAC Star (gold cluster)
  Hell Champion Medal
  Gatekeeper Bronze Badge
  Gatekeeper Silver Badge
  Reaper Silver Badge
  Reaper Bronze Badge
  Skull Bronze Badge
  Shottyman Bronze Badge

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  #...........========>.0...................^................
  #|...........======.==.....................................
  #.......==...=========...........................0.........
  #......#==####..======..............###########.......##+##
  #......#==...#...====.............B.#......[..#.......#....
  #......#===..=..=...................#.........#...0...#|...
  #}.....==.=====...^.#####...........####+######.......#....
  #..==..==..===V.....#.*.+.......B...B.................#....
  #.==..=#....====...|#...#..#+########......###+#####..#....
  #==.====...=.====...#...#..#........#0.....#.......#..#####
  #.=.==|#...===.==...#####..#>.......#......#.......#.......
  #..==.=#######==...........#..##.##.#B..0..#.......#.......
  #.0.........0===...........#..##.##.#......#.......#.......
  #............====...^......#........#......#[......#.......
  #............=...X.......|.#....=.=.#......#########.......
  #...!.......=.....%...A....####=====#..............".......
  #..........................\...=====.......................
  #......................|.......==..=.....M...".."..........
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/45   Experience 54787/11
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +0  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +0

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Finesse          (Level 2)
    Hellrunner       (Level 1)
    Reloader         (Level 2)
    Juggler          (Level 1)
    Intuition        (Level 2)
    Whizkid          (Level 1)
    Shottyman        (Level 1)
    Shottyhead       (Level 1)

  Int->Int->Rel->Rel->SM->HR->Fin->Jug->MSh->Fin->WK->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   Angelic Armor [7/7] (58%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   tactical shotgun (8d3) [2/6]
    [c] [ Boots      ]   modified plasteel boots [2/2] (96%) (A)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   modified double shotgun (9d3)x3 [2/2] (B1P1)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a]   Trigun (3d6) [6/6]
    [b]   modified red armor [6/6] (100%) (P)
    [c]   shotgun shell (x11)
    [d]   shotgun shell (x50)
    [e]   shotgun shell (x50)
    [f]   shotgun shell (x50)
    [g]   shotgun shell (x50)
    [h]   large med-pack
    [i]   large med-pack
    [j]   large med-pack
    [k]   envirosuit pack
    [l]   power mod pack
    [m]   technical mod pack
    [n]   agility mod pack
    [o]   bulk mod pack
    [p]   blood skull
    [q]   shell box (x100)
    [r]   shell box (x100)
    [s]   shell box (x100)
    [t]   shell box (x100)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Acid       - internal 0%    torso 0%    feet 50% 
    Fire       - internal 0%    torso 0%    feet 25% 

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    82 former humans
    95 former sergeants
    21 former captains
    117 imps
    72 demons
    289 lost souls
    22 cacodemons
    19 barons of hell
    27 hell knights
    13 arachnotrons
    12 former commandos
    22 pain elementals
    10 arch-viles
    16 mancubi
    3 revenants
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 agony elemental

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 4 he stormed the Chained Court.
  On level 5 he assembled a tactical boots!
  On level 7 he witnessed the Wall.
  Not knowing what to do, he left.
  On level 10 he entered Hell's Armory.
  He fled being chased by a nightmare!
  On level 12 he assembled a tactical shotgun!
  On level 13 he ventured into the Halls of Carnage.
  On level 14 he found the Trigun!
  On level 15 he encountered the Phobos Hellgate.
  On level 17 he found the City of Skulls.
  He wiped out the City of Skulls.
  On level 22 he stumbled into complex full of mancubi!
  On level 22 he was foolish enough to enter the Mortuary!
  He activated the Angel Arm on level 22!
  On level 22 he found the Angelic Armor!
  He managed to clear the Mortuary from evil!
  On level 23 he finally incinerated by an arch-vile.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 You see : floor
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : floor
 You hear the scream of a freed soul!
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : Seppo (mortally wounded) [m]ore | floor
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : floor
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : floor
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : floor
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : floor
 The arch-vile raises his arms! The arachnotron suddenly rises from the
 dead! You are engulfed in flames! You die!... Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 72 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 69 of those were killed.
 And 3 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Soo, yeah, I get hit by an Arch-Vile for almost half my HP, see a supercharge and decide to "snipe" everything as soon as I can see them with Int. I'm right next to the supercharge when I see a purple star just above me and try to snipe it only so it can suddenly move like 5 tiles in a single turn despite the fact that my firing delay is 0.2 seconds or something. 16% HP left doesn't leave much doubt, I get annihilated instantly. Since I have no idea what the hell happened could someone explain how did that thing move so fast? As far as I'm aware Arch-Viles have a speed of 160% (according to the wiki, it's probably outdated but I'd assume it's close enough, I doubt their speed has been tripled). Just before it killed me it was just outside my LoS, right above me, maybe one tile to the left.

I'm still learning this game (hence Int) and there are a couple of things I can't figure out such as when am I hidden. I've tried to look at some guides but they can't always offer the answer, I know that in a situation like this
Code: [Select]
.###
@###
..A.
I'm always safe despite the fact that I can see the enemy, but it seems that the moment they take one step away from the wall they can always see me no matter how far (horizontally in the example) away they are. Also it seems sometimes they can see me but I can't see them (I'd assume the scenario described above could be an example if the positions were reversed), it just feels odd that I'm being shot at despite the fact that I can barely see them on the edge of my LoS with Int. Do (some) monsters see further than I do or something?

Also, I have no idea how to play without Int. Sure, I can shoot behind every corner with a shotgun but that wastes a ton of ammo, not to mention it doesn't help if a monster is hidden in a doorway or something and steps in wherever I shot at the same time I do. Even if I get shot at it's not that bad while the worst things I can run into are imps and former captains, but by the time I'm seeing arachnotrons and former commandos who can pretty much drop me in a single round...

I have no idea how the hell I'm supposed to kill the Arena Master on AoSh either, double or normal shotguns don't even seem to tickle him and I'm constantly being raped by shotguns from every direction (although the Arena Master is the real problem). I can get rid of Hell Knights to some extent by pushing them into lava, but that doesn't seem to work too well for the former humans, not to mention that the Arch-Vile ofter comes right behind them. Currently I've decided to just grab the agility mod packs and make a run for it after clearing the right side.

E: Actually, scrap that, picking Rel & SM before Int seems to do the trick as long as you keep nailing him with a double shotgun. I still had to use a ton of medpacks though.

Oh, and how do mod pack limits work? I grabbed wizkid so I could put some more power (and possibly technical) mod packs on that combat shotgun, but apparently you can't add anything into it after you turn it into a tactical shotgun. Shame, even if I can fire 5 rounds every second I'm kinda lacking on firepower although I can pretty much push anything outside my LoS with the tactical shotgun, it just wastes a ton of ammo even though (as you can see) I had plenty of it left. If I want to go for shotguns do I have to pump a ton of power mods into a tactical shotgun or hope I get a unique one or something?

Well, that was my best game so far and I'm kinda disappointed that I died such a stupid death, I could've avoided taking the damage which took me down to 16% in the first place or used a med-pack or something. I just have no idea how that Arch-Vile managed to jump on me. They seemed to move two-three tiles in a turn earlier too while I kept shooting, and unless I'm mistaken that would require a speed of 500% or something if my firing delay is 0.2s. In case you're wondering how I cleared The Mortuary I found an invulnerability globe in the previous level, teleported next to the stairs with a homing phase device and ran for the entrance right next to the stairs and popped the Trigun's alt reload. I panicked for a while there when I thought the game told me I can't use it on AoSh, but then I realized I was trying alt-fire instead of alt-reload!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 10:40 by Kvaak »
Logged

Uranium

  • Greater Elder
  • Second Lieutenant
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 196
  • Heavier Than A Death In The Family
    • View Profile
Re: [H|AoSh|95%|23|YASD] Sniping that Arch-Viles is totally safe!
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2011, 10:51 »

Viles have been the cause of death of many a marine - it's a shame you died this far in :(
I'm not entirely sure how the Vile hit you - will probably need a veteran to work out this.

Line of sight works a bit funny - there are certain cornershooting instances where it'll work fine, and some where you'll hit the wall right next to you.
However, regarding your diagram, the arachnotron can't hit you because its line of fire has to go around the wall to get you. If it moves down one space, it can make a straight diagonal line to you, allowing it to hit you. Basically, if the monster's line of fire doesn't have to take any drastic bends to get to you, it can attack you. I'm not sure exactly of the nuances of cornershooting, even though I'm a shottyman at heart and should have learned (too many AoB games will do that to you).

Oh, and mod limits: You need Whizkid 2 to be able to add mods onto assemblies, but you need to have WK2 before you assemble the weapon to be able to mod it.
Logged
Use power for power.

Game Hunter

  • Programmer
  • Local Inquisitor
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
  • Looks like game to me.
    • View Profile
    • Channel, the Roguelike
Re: [H|AoSh|95%|23|YASD] Sniping that Arch-Viles is totally safe!
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2011, 10:58 »

...could someone explain how did that thing move so fast? As far as I'm aware Arch-Viles have a speed of 160% (according to the wiki, it's probably outdated but I'd assume it's close enough, I doubt their speed has been tripled). Just before it killed me it was just outside my LoS, right above me, maybe one tile to the left.
It's hard to say since I'm not aware of the exact circumstances. An Arch-vile can't act fast enough to get two actions in between a ~0.23s attack (as this would require 400% speed, which is currently impossible), although the AI could have something to do with it. It's also possible that (given the amount of fluid around the area) you may had set off a barrel with the last attack, thus propelling the Arch-vile into view. Note that the ressurction action is actually instant, so that wasn't included as one of the Arch-vile's separate turns.

I've certainly had my share of losses because I got greedy with health conservation, so I don't fault you for being stingy.

...I know that in a situation like this
Code: [Select]
.###
@###
..A.
I'm always safe despite the fact that I can see the enemy, but it seems that the moment they take one step away from the wall they can always see me no matter how far (horizontally in the example) away they are. Also it seems sometimes they can see me but I can't see them (I'd assume the scenario described above could be an example if the positions were reversed), it just feels odd that I'm being shot at despite the fact that I can barely see them on the edge of my LoS with Int.
Enemies have built-in artificial blind spots such that, even though you and the enemy have a mutual line of sight, they cannot use a ranged attack against you. The exact locations of these blind spots can be difficult to keep track of but you're pretty safe hugging a wall edge and shoot parallel to the wall. (In the example you give, if the enemy was about 5 tiles to the right of you and 2 spaces down, it should be roughly in a blind spot.)

There are also some unusual cases in which mutual line of sight is not obtained, allowing you to shoot an enemy from a literal blind spot (and vice versa). The most common occurance of a blind spot is when you and the enemy are in different rooms and on opposite sides of the portal that connects the rooms, as shown below:
Code: [Select]
..A.......
..........
..........
#####.####
..........
..........
.......@..

Ultimately this can only be fixed by a refactoring of the vision code, which is supposedly one of the big changes we'll see in 0.9.9.5.

Do (some) monsters see further than I do or something?
Vision can vary among enemies. However, with the exception of the end-game bosses there is nothing that sees farther than you do. Lost Souls and Demons actually have less vision, meaning you can sneak past them at the edge of your own vision.

Also, I have no idea how to play without Int.
There are a few things to learn that makes the difference between a new player and an experienced one. They can be boiled down roughly into:
  • Effective dodging tactics
  • Corner-shooting and radar-shooting (scouting)
  • Taking advantage of enemy blind spots
  • Reacting to enemy noises
All of these are important in preventing damage to yourself, which is essentially the hidden goal of the game (simply put, you have to win if you don't die). Learning the weapons and builds and how they synergize properly is important too, but this list summarizes all of the more subtle aspects of the game that can really change the tides from a tactical persepctive.

I have no idea how the hell I'm supposed to kill the Arena Master on AoSh either...
Arena Master can be tricky on a shotgun-only run: I find that the most effective strategy is to wait for him to get close (as he often does these days) and position yourself in such a way that firing your weapon will constantly knock him back into the lava just outside of the starting room's exits. Either he attacks you and burns in the lava or tries to move out, and either way you're much better off than you were before. (You can try this same tactic to get rid of a lot of the enemies so that the Arena Master isn't constantly ressurecting them.)

Oh, and how do mod pack limits work? I grabbed wizkid so I could put some more power (and possibly technical) mod packs on that combat shotgun, but apparently you can't add anything into it after you turn it into a tactical shotgun.
Since you seem to read the Wiki, mod limits can be found here. Specifically, assemblies cannot be modded except under certain circumstances as describes on the assemblies page. If you're looking for power on a shotgun, I would suggest building an elephant gun or a focused double shotgun: both pack a very powerful punch. That aside, P3T2 shotguns are quite powerful on their own.

Also, welcome to the forums!
Logged
I'm just a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude.

Latest LPs: Angband, Delver

Kvaak

  • Elder
  • Private FC
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: [H|AoSh|95%|23|YASD] Sniping that Arch-Viles is totally safe!
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2011, 13:26 »

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (v.0.9.9.4) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Seppo, level 10 Cacodemon Corporal Scout,
 rode a mancubi rocket on level 20 of the Phobos base.
 He survived 104410 turns and scored 102734 points.
 He played for 1 hour, 35 minutes and 24 seconds.
 He wasn't afraid to be hurt plenty.

 He killed 613 out of 624 hellspawn. (98%)
 He held his right to remain violent.
 He was an Angel of Shotgunnery!

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 10
  Levels visited   : 6
  Levels completed : 5

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  Hell Armorer Badge
  UAC Star (bronze cluster)
  Hell Champion Medal
  Armorer Silver Badge
  Arachno Bronze Badge

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  ###########################################################
  ..==========................==========.......X...##########
  #..========..####......####..========..##....##...#########
  ##..##==##..######....######..##==##..####..####...########
  ###..####..###;|......M.|[###..####..###......###...#######
  .###..##..###|......R.....|###..##..###........###...######
  .|###.|..###......}..[......###....###.........|###...#####
  ...##....##|.....!#==#!.....R##....##....}..}....##....####
  .................######}..................=#.....|......###
  ...|........M...}##**##[...........R|..M..##........R...###
  ...##....##|......#==#R.....|##....##....}..[....##....####
  ||###....###.........}......###....###....R....|###...#####
  .###..##..###.............|###..##..###........###...######
  ###..####..###.|........|[###..####..###|....|###...#######
  ##..######..######....######..##==##..####..####...########
  #..========..####......####..========R.##....##...#########
  ..==========................==========..R........##########
  ###########################################################
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/50   Experience 45897/10
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +0  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +0

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Finesse          (Level 2)
    Hellrunner       (Level 1)
    Reloader         (Level 2)
    Juggler          (Level 1)
    Intuition        (Level 2)
    Shottyman        (Level 1)
    Shottyhead       (Level 1)

  Rel->Rel->SM->Int->Int->HR->Fin->Jug->MSh->Fin->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   modified red armor [3/6] (30%) (P)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   super shotgun (8d4)x3 [2/2]
    [c] [ Boots      ]   phaseshift boots [4/4] (84%)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   tactical shotgun (8d3) [6/6]

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a]   modified red armor [4/4] (200%) (B)
    [b]   shotgun shell (x20)
    [c]   shotgun shell (x50)
    [d]   large med-pack
    [e]   large med-pack
    [f]   large med-pack
    [g]   large med-pack
    [h]   phase device
    [i]   technical mod pack
    [j]   technical mod pack
    [k]   technical mod pack
    [l]   agility mod pack
    [m]   shell box (x100)
    [n]   shell box (x100)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Fire       - internal 0%    torso 25%   feet 0%   

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    79 former humans
    78 former sergeants
    17 former captains
    145 imps
    55 demons
    103 lost souls
    24 cacodemons
    12 barons of hell
    34 hell knights
    27 arachnotrons
    7 former commandos
    11 pain elementals
    3 arch-viles
    11 mancubi
    3 revenants
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 shambler
    1 Arena Master

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 3 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 6 he stormed the Chained Court.
  He defeated the Hell Arena Master!
  On level 6 he found the Arena Master's Staff!
  On level 7 he assembled a tactical boots!
  On level 10 he assembled a tactical shotgun!
  On level 10 he entered Hell's Armory.
  He destroyed the evil within and reaped the rewards!
  On level 13 he ventured into the Halls of Carnage.
  On level 15 he encountered the Phobos Hellgate.
  On level 19 he ventured into the Spider's Lair.
  He cleared the Lair, kickin' serious spider ass!
  On level 20 he entered the Vaults.
  On level 20 he finally rode a mancubi rocket.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 You swap your weapons instantly!
 You swap your weapons instantly!
 Unknown command. Press "?" for help.
 You dodge! Boom!
 There is a blue armor [2/2] (100%) lying here.
 There is a blue armor [2/2] (100%) lying here.
 There is a blue armor [2/2] (100%) lying here.
 Unknown command. Press "?" for help. There is a blue armor [2/2] (100%)
 lying here.
 You see : a shell box (x100) | floor
 Too tired to do that right now.
 You are hit!
 You use a phase device. You feel yanked in an non-existing direction! You
 You see : floor
 Boom! You are hit! Boom! Your red armor is damaged!
 Boom! You are hit! You die!... Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 78 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 75 of those were killed.
 And 3 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Out of ammo? I think I'm doing something really, really wrong.

...like ignoring those shell boxes in my inventory. Sigh. Even so "sniping" everything with the tactical shotgun doesn't seem to be a very ammo effective tactic.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 13:28 by Kvaak »
Logged

Game Hunter

  • Programmer
  • Local Inquisitor
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
  • Looks like game to me.
    • View Profile
    • Channel, the Roguelike
Re: [H|AoSh|95%|23|YASD] Sniping that Arch-Viles is totally safe!
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2011, 13:44 »

Even so "sniping" everything with the tactical shotgun doesn't seem to be a very ammo effective tactic.
With Shottyhead the answer is a definite no. You need to take into account how much damage is being dealt at a sniping distance: with a vision of 9 and the tactical shotgun's drop-off rate at 0.05, there's a minimum of 50% damage loss when hitting things beyond your sight. Then, once you add up the armor of enemies like Revs and Mancubi and factor its double-effectiveness against shrapnel, you'll find that the average shot doesn't hurt much more than the minimum damage of one. The shotty master that wins the sniping award is Army of the Dead, since it removes all of the armor reduction and makes each shot count as much as possible. Shottyhead is more useful for players that like to shoot and dodge, but will require getting fairly close (note that this isn't a feasible strategy against certain enemies).

I can't help but notice the super shotgun in your equipment as well. Usually that's more than enough of a powerhouse to deal with enemies, sniping or otherwise.
Logged
I'm just a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude.

Latest LPs: Angband, Delver
Pages: [1]