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Author Topic: Pre-Assembled Weapons? Good/bad idea?  (Read 2814 times)

Sambojin

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Pre-Assembled Weapons? Good/bad idea?
« on: October 26, 2011, 20:20 »

I was thinking a little bit about the game the other day and the availability (or lack thereof) of the harder to get mods. As well as the extremely unlikely conditions that I would have to come into to actually even consider using some of the unique weapons that are in the game. There's absolutely no reason to run around with a unique pistol if you're not doing a pistol build, it really won't ever be your main weapon. It will be a better pistol, but you'll probably just use whatever you feel the most comfortable with depending on your build or favoured play-style.

So I began wondering if being able to find pre-assembled weapons might be a good thing. It lowers the need for WK levels in the game, but would it address any problems or merely add to the randomness of good weapon finds?

AFAIK you only "learn" an assembly when you make it or find the schematics for it. So actually picking up a weapon/armour and using it won't affect the known assemblies (or the medals/badges linked to such things). But would including pre-built weapons skew the game too much? I understand that many assemblies are simply "fill-ins" and substitutes for uniques and specials, as well as giving many builds a good list of very viable options to excell in their roles. But if pre-assembled weapons were added to the game, using a rare/special/unique style of drop system (as well as minimum levels for appearance), does anyone think it would add to or reduce the fun, "special-ness", or difficulty of the game unduly?

Your thoughts?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 20:22 by Sambojin »
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RickVoid

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Re: Pre-Assembled Weapons? Good/bad idea?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2011, 11:38 »

Completely pre-assembled weapons would be a little overpowered, and they'd need to be need to be fairly rare. I'm getting flash-backs to the frustration that was searching for advanced weapons in earlier versions.

As an alternative to this, maybe allow weapons to spawn that already have a single mod attached. Which also means Enemies have a chance to be holding modded weapons, which would allow for variety similar to when you come across an enemy wearing armor. The mods should be one of the four common mods (Bulk, Power, Agility, and Technical). Drop rate could be somewhere around 10%? It's not like there's an item that would let us farm mods from this. Allow for modded armor as well?
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Thexare

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Re: Pre-Assembled Weapons? Good/bad idea?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2011, 13:02 »

Completely pre-assembled weapons would be a little overpowered, and they'd need to be need to be fairly rare. I'm getting flash-backs to the frustration that was searching for advanced weapons in earlier versions.
Many of them are roughly equivalent to Exotic or Unique items as it is. I'm not so sure it would be overpowered, so long as the distribution was balanced right.
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RickVoid

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Re: Pre-Assembled Weapons? Good/bad idea?
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2011, 13:23 »

Many of them are roughly equivalent to Exotic or Unique items as it is. I'm not so sure it would be overpowered, so long as the distribution was balanced right.

I guess that was sort of the point I wanted to make. We already have Exotics and Uniques, and it would kind of nullify the Assembled item gimmick.

Single Modded weapons makes way more sense to me. It encourages going for assemblies, makes them less frustrating, shouldn't affect the balance too badly, and it only makes sense for soldiers with access to weapon modifications to actually have used some of them.
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Sambojin

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Re: Pre-Assembled Weapons? Good/bad idea?
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2011, 17:07 »

I may not quite get what you mean about soldiers having them. If you mean former humans/sergeants/etc then 10% is way too high. For the very reason that farming a power modded shotty or ag modded chaingun would be a snap. Not to mention the sheer simplicity of having a modded out kit by level 2 on Nightmare! difficulty would be.

Still, it's food for though. A group of tech or bulk or power modded sergeants or ag modded commandos would be a pretty damn fearsome prospect. With so many tasty rewards for blasting them. Maybe too many rewards I think.

Scavenger would end up as the next best master trait in many ways. I can't see a problem with them as special/unique drops, but mods becoming as common as 10% of weapons on formerd(or even 1%) is probably way too common.
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Thexare

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Re: Pre-Assembled Weapons? Good/bad idea?
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2011, 20:19 »

but mods becoming as common as 10% of weapons on formerd(or even 1%) is probably way too common.
1% would be negligible - used a random 100% UV mortem for reference, a total of 302 formers spawned. Three extra mods.

I think the best way to do it would be to add two new classes of Former (one for a random assembled weapon, one for a random assembled or modded armor), and have them appear very rarely (probably limited to Ao100) or in certain special levels (one or two in the Vaults maybe, or the Halls of Carnage). Using a random assembled weapon adds quite a bit of risk as well, since you could end up fighting something with a Tactical Rocket Launcher, Storm Bolter, or Hyperblaster - useful in your hands, but you're getting hit pretty damn hard until you drop the guy, and since it's a new class of Former, it can have enough HP to get off at least a shot or two.

(seperate types so the armor one has a specific predefined weapon and the protection stacking isn't too obscene.)
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Sambojin

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Re: Pre-Assembled Weapons? Good/bad idea?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2011, 03:55 »

New enemies wouldn't be a bad thing. I actually wouldn't mind a group of *nightmare* type formers to be spawned in late game (or Ao100).

Triple life, +2 armour, more accurate, soundless faster formers would be freaky. More ammo for you in later depths, but well more than a shotgun blast for it.

Yeah, they'd take up a position other enemies do in some cases (captains and commandos becoming like slightly different arachnotrons in some cases), but modded pistols or shotties may not be enough for your enemies if they just die from a single shotgun blast.

I guess it might be something to do in a tight-corridor/column/open-area arena style mod. See how tough you'd have to make them to be different, cool, hard, but not too hard. Why not a RL type of former as well. Slower, highly inaccurate area damge, lowish life.

An entire swarm of tech, power or bulk modded sergeants in the Halls actually sounds like a nice way of making the first peice of the level a real challenge. A green or blue armour for them all and it really sounds both challenging yet rewarding.

Meh, I forget where I was going with this. Errrrmmm, 2% sounds about right then...... :)
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Bloax

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Re: Pre-Assembled Weapons? Good/bad idea?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2011, 08:53 »

Code: [Select]
Former Marine
Health| 50+10d3-10
Armor| 1d3-1
Accuracy| 2d3-2
Melee Damage| 1d3+3d4-3
Projectile Damage| Depends on weapon
Speed| (100+10d5-10)%
Standard Depth| 20+
Experience Value| 240
Inventory| Random: "Shotgun", "Combat shotgun", "Double shotgun", "Chaingun", "Plasma rifle"
46% Unmodded, 25% Single mod (only for non-respawned), 15% Basic Assembly (non respawned, if available, else two mods), 10% Random Exotic (respawns don't drop weapon), 3% Random Unique (Same as exotic), 1% BFG (It HURTS.)
Armor
45% Unmodded, 25% Single mod, 20% Basic Assembly (if available, else power/bulk/agility mod?), 17% Exotic (respawns reroll?), 3% Unique (Same as exotic)
1d3 Small Medpacks, 1d2-1 Large Medpack
Attack| 100% (See below.)
Special abilities| Randomly tries to dodge shots (25% chance?), dodges projectiles with a chance of (Speed-100)%
Description| Stories go about heroes who tore through hell, but didn't make it all the way. This is one of such heroes. And he's just as tough, hardy and mean as you - watch out!
Hmm? ;)

Perhaps another special ability is moving away from you if you use a shotgun, and he's using something else. (Eg. Plasma rifle)
Thus exploiting the damage falloff, because you know, it's supposed to be a bit intelligent. :P

Maybe some difficulty factors, I don't know. Oh, and yeah - there should indeed be a miniscule chance that he's UNLEASHING THE POWER OF THE BERSERKER!! (Run!!)
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 08:58 by Bloax »
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GrimmC

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Re: Pre-Assembled Weapons? Good/bad idea?
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2011, 19:48 »

Honestly, I can't say I support any of these ideas. The whole point of assemblies is that they're powerful exotic/unique-type weapons that you can make. You don't have to rely on sheer luck of the RNG to get them. If you have pre-assembled weapons, that voids the entire purpose or "gameplay niche" that assemblies fit into.

As far as teaching you the assembly, it honestly reduces the challenge of the game when you know every assembly combination...hence why I don't look at the wiki. I wouldn't mind some hints here or there, though.
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Ander Hammer

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Re: Pre-Assembled Weapons? Good/bad idea?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2011, 18:53 »

You don't have to rely on sheer luck of the RNG to get them.

...

Yes, you do.
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Sambojin

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Re: Pre-Assembled Weapons? Good/bad idea?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2011, 15:45 »

I agree that it probably would make it somewhat easier to use the basic assemblies. Possibly too easy. To tell you the truth, I tend to see assemblies as just another part of character building.

If your going for a pistol build, you'll mod-up some nice pistols. There's also a nice assembly for them where WK isn't a necessity. There's also some "really nice" assemblies for them if you take WK and find the mods. With the rarity of these mods coming out as about the same chance of aquiring them as finding a nice unique pistol somewhere in your run.

The point being, the basic assembly works. You'll almost always get enough mods together to make one of the assembled weapons no matter what build-type you're going for. It's just a matter of saving the required mods for that particular weapon. Therefore, I don't think that having a couple of extra pre-assembled weapons in a run would drastically alter the difficulty as long as they were kept to the rareness of specials and uniques.

I've found that there's nothing rare or unique about a speedloader pistol. Or a tactical shotgun, a gatling gun or even an assault rifle or hyperblaster. If I want that weapon, there's a pretty good chance that by mid-game I will have built it. With the weapons getting a little better as I mod them up (an ag/ag modded chaingun is still a good weapon until it goes all rifle-y for me). Some of the other assemblies, I'll probably almost never make. Probably exactly never. So having a very occaisional demoltion-ammo'ed chaingun might not be such a bad thing. Not any more game changing than finding an assault shotgun early in my run followed by a Jackhammer a few levels later. Very lucky, game-changing finds, but this has happened a couple of times to me. It changed the difficulty enormously, but it won't happen every run (it's a fluke that it's happened as often as it has). A tactical shotgun tends to happen every shotgun run I do if all goes well. It's game changing, just not unique or special. Certainly not rare. And far more likely than a plasmatic shotgun or demolition ammo will ever be. Rare isn't the same as "probably won't ever happen", so a few higher end pre-assembled weapons or armour sounds attractive to me.

Although, I could be wrong. It's just my opinion. Thus the thread for discussion.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 15:48 by Sambojin »
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