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[Creepy]

Over a quarter of the assemblies require nano packs. Just under half require exotic/unique packs to use. I was under the impression that assemblies were, in part, a way to reduce reliance on unique drops to get yourself some nifty gear. Instead it's looking like a way to use nano packs to make godkiller equipment, instead of the ability to create not-quite-exotic gear out of mundane material.

Basic seems fine; it only has a couple of things in there that require exotic/unique mods to make. But more than half of the advanced ones require exotic drops. There are no advanced pistol assemblies that don't require an exotic, and the only advanced armor you can build without a unique mod is environmental boots. Chainguns and shotguns do get the Assault Rifle and Focused Double, which look pretty sweet (I haven't gotten the Focused Double, but the Assault Rifle served me well in the past), but other equipment types rely on exotics to get any better. Master is almost entirely nano-based. Except the new Cerebus gear, which I haven't tried yet (The 0 protection weirds me out, high resistances or not).

Considering that nano is already really powerful even without assemblies, can we get more that don't require it? Or the other rare mods, for that matter?

[Game Hunter]

Part of the v0.9.9.5 overhaul will be me doing some major changes to the exotics, uniques, and assemblies (or, at the very least, running some significant analysis on all of these things to see if they require major changes). More likely than not a good chunk of this work will involve changing the assemblies around a lot, so expect some easier-but-lesser versions of the things you already know in the next version (or betas if you have access to them). In my humble opinion, however, I figure that all of the master assemblies should require exotic or unique mods in order to create them. At the moment this is vastly skewed in favor of finding Nano Packs, and there are even a couple that don't require any rare mods at all: I'll be experimenting over the course of development to create interesting combinations for the master assemblies so that they are powerful but aren't too impossible to assemble in a given game.

That said, if you want to point me in a specific direction, use this topic as a suggestion box for all assembly-related changes (or possibly additions, as I may end up scrapping some of the current ones if there's no reasonable way to redeem them).

[Ander Hammer]

Except the new Cerebus gear, which I haven't tried yet (The 0 protection weirds me out, high resistances or not).

Anyone who can assemble Cerberus armor can give it 2 protection with a power mod after assembly.

[RickVoid]

I really have to agree with this post. Basic assembies should not require any more than Power, Technical, Agility, or Bulk packs. Advanced shouldn't use more than exotic, and even then only for a few. Master should be the realm of rare assembly pack.

I'm glad to hear that you'll be changing things around with the assemblies. I'll take a look at the weapon and armor stat over the next couple of days and see if I can hammer out some suggestions for you. I promise not to spoil any current .5 changes.

[Sambojin]

Not actually a post for the assemblies themselves, but about the Technician class. Starting with a tech-mod is something that really does help make them (in my eyes at least) the best. Amongst their other amazingly good bonuses.

With WK as their normal advanced trait, it makes things a bit too good. I've posted about it in the "strongest build" thread, but having the tech mod can be a little overpowered. Once you've done the Chained Court, you've got the option of going pistols (1 Speedloader is done), rapid fire - a hyperblaster (an ag/tech'ed plasma rifle to play with until another tech pops up), micro-launcher for general explodyness (teched R/L is still good) or a tactical shotty (first power mod and a combat shotty means a free assault power-modded shotty basically).

Even just putting it on that first shotgun helps a lot to get through the early levels.

I understand it isn't exactly a gimme solution, and there's usually enough tech mods for all the classes/assemblies/builds, but by god does it make things easier in either the early or mid game. An almost definate choice of build type with weapons to match for which one you choose. Assemblies were sometimes a mongrel to get in earlier versions. We all (me) whined that you either needed WK, basic assemblies weren't good enough and that something should be done about it. I think I may have rambled on about normal modding still being better or something like that. I haven't done a run in ages now that I haven't assembled SOMETHING.

Technicians did fix all that that, but probably too well. Strong builds, strong weapons, good armour. The basic assemblies also all got a good boost. Do we need a free mod pack (of any sort) for an already strong class?

[Sambojin]

Yes, this post is to just pip me over the 100 post mark.

If technicians are going to keep their tech-mod, can we expect the other classes to start with additional equipment?

Perhaps either a small or large meditkit for marines and a (homing?) phase device for scouts? Perhaps the balance of technicians is exactly what's wanted, and a spare medikit or phase would probably be less empowering than a technicians advantages.

A consumable-mini-berserk for marines and a consumable tracking map for scouts would be favourite (and nicely overpowered :) )

[raekuul]

Well, yes but no. The Tech mod is as permanent as the weapon you slap it on, while the consumables are good for, at best, one level. Maybe if each class started with a different mod pack?

[GrimmC]

Technicians are by nature tinkerers. It makes sense for them to have a mod pack, but I would not expect the other classes to have one. I like the idea of other special items, the mini berserk and tracking map, for the other two classes. Or else something in that vein.

Technicians are powerful, but they're probably just the first class to get it "right". Let's not forget the 50% powerup duration that Marines have, which basically nullifies any level if there's two invuls or berserks right next to each other, and the +10 hitpoints. Oh yeah, not to mention access to BA at any time which basically doubles your hitpoints.

If anything, scouts are a little weak, and that's mostly because active defense doesn't seem to cut it these days. By late-game, there are two enemies which can hit you no matter how fast you move, and a third which has a very good chance to. Plus, it seems very hard to get serious firepower with any of the Scout master traits. Even Fireangel, which is technician but the epitome of active defense, the only way to dodge Viles and Revs, suffers because of the lack of firepower.

Conclusion: I think we should wait to see how the game plays with the late-game AI tweaking and other changes before we worry about messing with the classes too much.

On topic: I agree that assemblies should be tweaked. Since I don't look at the Wiki, I don't really know exactly what the Advanced or any of the Master assemblies look like. But I did take a quick glance once and was surprised at how many nanos were required for the Advanced assemblies. That seems unnecessary. For the record, I have played through at least 12 full games now in the past two months and got decently far in many more, and only once did I find ANY exotic or rare mod packs. It seems very, very unlikely to find one unless you annihilate the Shambler, and don't have any more schematics to pick up.

The Basic assemblies are well-balanced. I don't mind if Masters are crazy assemblies that you probably won't get, but will totally turn the tables if you do. Advanced have to fall somewhere in between. They're more than just exotics you can assemble--most have a fairly dramatic effect on the game, which I like. Still, it should be feasible to assemble most of them in a given game.

In particular, pistols definitely could use some more assemblies. Almost all of the better weapons are limited to exotics/rares that hardly ever drop...and it seems like you never find those on your AoMr run.

[Uranium]

...exotics/rares that hardly ever drop...and it seems like you never find those on your AoMr run.

And you find sniper and firestorm mods on AoB and Nano and Onyx on AoI.

[Ander Hammer]

My problem with the rarity of certain modpacks and the prevalence of them in higher-tier assemblies is that it makes taking Whizkid and hoping to collect rare assemblies (even in AoC) a major gamble.

I had a simple idea for making WK even more overpowered and lessening the already great chance that you'll take it only to use one or two of the more advanced assemblies:

Only include Nano and Onyx packs in basic assemblies. That way, if you find one, you'll have an array of powerful (if possibly somewhat limited) choices regardless of the build that finds it, and Whizkids will only need to collect basic materials to make their glorious end-game toys rather than wishing and praying.

p.s. starting a movement to call Ao100 'AoC' since I do not like typing 'Ao100'.

[rchandra]

Only include Nano and Onyx packs in basic assemblies. That way, if you find one, you'll have an array of powerful (if possibly somewhat limited) choices regardless of the build that finds it, and Whizkids will only need to collect basic materials to make their glorious end-game toys rather than wishing and praying.

But if you find a nano or onyx pack, you can already do something ridiculous with it by just putting it on your stuff.  You don't need whizkid.  Any assembly involving a nano pack has to compete with the power of putting it on your rocket/missile/napalm launcher.  Onyx's default (red armour) is less insane but still very strong and also part of a basic assembly.  Making a ton of basic assemblies with nano/onyx just makes the packs that much more broken, which they do not need.

And if you do take whizkid, you don't need to find a unique pack to make good use of it.  Nothing wrong with carrying an A2P3 plasma rifle, or a hyperblaster, or P2B3 pistols, ... or cerberus gear.

[raekuul]

Or, if you're a Technician, a ATP Cybernetic

[Sambojin]

I vaguely remember that being my rant in 0.9.9.2 or so. Basic modding works so well anyway with the special mod packs that the advanced or master assemblies were overkill in an already good situation.

Firestorm? Great plasma rifle or mini-bfg-ML.

Nano? Shotguns, ML/RLs or a red armour.

Onyx? Red armour.

And whizzkid just let you make those things even better. If I find an onyx pack (or an onyx armour), I'll go down the WK path regardless. Who doesn't want an OP armour? Or an FTP missile launcher? :)

Any assembly not requiring the special packs is already great, how much better do they need to be for the rareness of the special packs? When the special packs do so much anyway?

Really damn good. Which they are, just don't expect to be able to use them often. Would you break a build type if you found an onyx just to make something really cool with WK? I mean, you've already got plate armour, what more do you want? OP armour?

[raekuul]

That's part of my problem with exotic/unique packs going into advanced assemblies (I could care less if they're used in Ultimate Assemblies). Because you're slapping an overpowering modifier on a weapon, you know that you're going to get an overpowered weapon out of it, whether or not it's an assembly. Yeah, I get the idea of rewarding actually using the mods with a new toy and a mark in the Player Stats, but it's just silly to have so many middle-of-the-road assemblies that require awesome tools to make - especially when a Nano Mod Pack serves me better on my armor than it does going into an advanced assembly. If I were making an Ultimate Assembly, then yeah I'd use that, but still.

According to the Wiki...

Of the 19 Basic Assemblies, 4 require special mod packs - Power Armor and Plasmatic Shrapnel require Nano Packs, while Plate Armor and Lava Boots require Onyx Pack. 15/19 (a nice 79%) of the Basic Assemblies can be built with just the standard four packs, while the remaining 4 are evenly divided between Onyx and Nano.

Of the 14 Advanced Assemblies, 8 require special mod packs - Energy Pistol requires Sniper; VBFG9K, Nanofiber Skin, Gravity Boots and Nano Shrapnel all require Nano packs; Storm Bolter Pistol and Assault Cannon require Firestorm; Fireshield requires Onyx. 6/14 (a measley 43%) of Advanced Assemblies can be built with just the standard four packs, while half of the others require the Nano pack. Bear in mind that the Nano Pack and Onyx Pack are Unique items. Unique items with no guarantee of appearing.

Like I said before, I could care less about how bad the Master Assemblies are on requirements, but here are their numbers anyway. Of the 7 Ultimate Assemblies, only two of them - Cerberus Armor and Cerberus Boots - can be made with just the standard four packs. The remaining 5 all require a Nano Pack; in addition, the Cybernano Armor also requires the Onyx Pack, while the Biggest Fucking Gun only requires the Sniper Pack

Out of all the assemblies, the Nano Pack is used in 11 of them (Out of 40 total assemblies - that's 27.5% of all assemblies)

At first glance, it seems weird that you can't use Exotic Packs in Basic Assemblies, but any monkey could slap a power and onyx mod on a red armor, while it takes some real knowhow to turn a Tactical, a Bulk, a Firestorm, and a Pistol into the Storm Bolter Pistol.

Dammit, I can't count past 11pm...

[raekuul]

Also, let something be said about the appearance rates of the standard four mod packs. You're more likely to build a Chainsword (Power + Bulk on Combat Knife) or Piercing Blade (Agilty + Power on any multimod melee weapon) than you are to make an Elephant Gun (Power + Power + Shotgun), and you're practically guaranteed a Tactical Armor or Boots if you can make it through the Chained Court. Power Mods are about as common as Envirosuits. Agility Mods are about as common as Imps.

[GrimmC]

On a side note, here's a potential new pistol assembly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howdah_pistol

I leave the details up to the devs.

[Bloax]

Hm..

Code: [Select]

Assembly: Pistol + PP
---- Stats ----
Howdah Pistol

Damage: 5d4 5-20
Accuracy: -3
Ammo/Clip: Bullets/2
Fire time: 1.0s
Reload time: 1.0s
Alternate reload: Dual reload
Description: Just like the ones they used as defense against lions.. Should work against demons too!
Extra bonus(?): Legitimate for both AoMr and AoSh!

Code: [Select]

Assembly: Pistol + PB
---- Stats ----
Revolver

Damage: 3d6 3-18
Accuracy: +1
Ammo/Clip: Bullets/6
Fire time: 1.3s
Reload time: 1.2s
Alternate fire: Aimed shot
Alternate reload: Dual reload
Description: The gun for the sons of guns. Hits hard, and hits plenty, if you can use it.
Nerfing them would somehow make them weak, but somehow they're way too strong as it is there.

[rchandra]

any chance of tweaking the elephant gun?  The huge reload time means you can't use it when knocking enemies back around corners, only when rushing them with shottyman.  The mod cost is also quite steep as power mods have a lot of other uses and are (marginally) rarest, the tactical shotgun probably trumps it.

[GrimmC]

I think it works perfectly, personally. As long as you're using MAD, that is. Otherwise, it's not too great, but what else do you expect for a basic shotgun assembly? A gun that any build at all can use?

[Bloax]

A basic, expensive assembly that's better used to make unbreakable armor?

Sticking to the normal shotgun, and making some nanofiber armor is better. Even the numbers speak.
8d3@2 Sec Fire/Reload vs. 12d3@3.5 Sec Fire/Reload -> 4-12/Sec vs. 3-10/Sec

With shottyman, the numbers change. But point is, the power mods are better used elsewhere. Like for the much more practical Tactical Shotgun.

[Thexare]

I've had quite a few games where I used a Tactical Shotgun and an Elephant Gun - using the Elephant Gun as a replacement for the Double Shotgun. In short range, it's almost as good (after considering the way armor affects the double, plus its weird knockback issues), and uses fewer shells.

I use the tactical shotgun more in open spaces and as filler for non-shotgun builds, but the Elephant Gun does a decent job in a shotgun game.

[tiw]

This post may possibly be controversial considering the design sensibilities of some of the posters on this forum, but I'm posting this anyway.

A lot of "basic" assemblies that require unique modpacks should be advanced or master assemblies using regular mods instead--they're largely a waste of unique modpacks compared to whatever else the player could make instead. Originals in [].

[power armor (red armor + PN)]
Since it's a "faster" doubled protection red armor, shouldn't it make sense that it would be constructed with either two P mods (8 protection variant) or two A mods (no speed penalty)? A T mod would be the auto-repair circuitry.

Suggested:
turbomotor power armor (red armor + AATP) (I know this is the same construction as Cerberus Armor, but honestly, that assembly is trash, should be scrapped, and there's better ways to add element protection.)
(same as old power armor but with 4 protection, still repairs 1% on each action and indestructible/cannot be unequipped)
hardened power armor (red armor + ATPP)
(same as old power armor but with -20% movement speed penalty, still repairs 1% on each action and indestructible/cannot be unequipped)

[plate armor (red armor + PO)]
This makes only a slightly improved Gothic Armor with the same movement penalties--something that wouldn't happen if one were to choose to NOT make such an assembly with the Onyx pack. Instead, it should be constructed as a really, really heavy red armor.

Suggested: plate armor (red armor + PBB)
Same stats as old plate armor. If any of you think it's too powerful (rolling eyes) then make it 200% durability and indestructible or something.

[plasmatic shrapnel (any shotgun + PN)]
This isn't affected by Army of the Dead, not to mention it's possible to lose the nano bonus by choosing to put the P on first.

Suggested: plasmatic shrapnel (any shotgun + TTT)
Same as old plasmatic shrapnel, but without the ammo regeneration. Call it a marvel of technical wizardry turning buckshot into plasma.

[lava boots (any boots + TO)]
Neat, but not worth wasting an onyx pack over considering it has durability to lose.

Suggested: lava boots (any boots + TPP)
Same stats as old lava boots.

[Thexare]

Suggested: plate armor (red armor + PBB)
Same stats as old plate armor. If any of you think it's too powerful (rolling eyes) then make it 200% durability and indestructible or something.

Current plate armor is indestructible too, so if it's the same stats...

[tiw]

Undamageable != indestructible. I mean indestructible in the sense that Angelic Armor is.

[AlterAsc]

Cerberus Armor, but honestly, that assembly is trash

there's better ways to add element protection.)

Please tell me a way to get 70% fire and 50% plasma protection without finding lava armor, because i don't know one and it would be a great help.
Also it's not 2ATP it's AT2P.

[tiw]

Please tell me a way to get 70% fire and 50% plasma protection without finding lava armor, because i don't know one and it would be a great help.
Also it's not 2ATP it's AT2P.

I don't disagree that the mitigation is useful, but counting special levels where agility mods are found en masse, power mods are worth their weight in gold and agility drops like fruit flies and the 0 protection mod is a killer for anything other than a green or special low-protection armor.

My argument is mainly that a lot of basic and advanced assemblies that use exotic/unique mods could simply just use more (3 to 4) basic mods to make, considering their inferior utility to spending the rare packs elsewhere in most cases.

[raekuul]

Mod Dropoff only applies to Master Assemblies (according to the Wiki, anyway), so Plasmatic Shrapnel shouldn't lose the benefits from Nano. Disregard that, I'm an idiot. It still should work like that, though.

[Thexare]

Undamageable != indestructible. I mean indestructible in the sense that Angelic Armor is.

How is that at all relevant when it doesn't take damage to begin with?

[Bloax]

*Sigh*, I think he means Unbreakable. In the same sense that the Lava, Cybernetic and Malek's armor "Cannot be destroyed by damage."
Which could be quite nifty, considering there are plenty of armor shards later in the game.

[tiw]

Same reason why Cybernetic Armor cannot be destroyed, really. (else it'd be possible to get it off)

I hope people don't have a fundamental problem with replacing exotic variants of basic assemblies with advanced/master assemblies using common mods, because that's pretty much what this game needs at this point.

[raekuul]

The problem with having the Nano Pack in so many useful assemblies is that it prevents you from making other useful assemblies by the simple fact that there's only one Nano Pack in any given run, if there's even one at all.

[Uranium]

The problem with having the Nano Pack in so many useful assemblies is that it prevents you from making other useful assemblies by the simple fact that there's only one Nano Pack in any given run, if there's even one at all.

This.
Also, none of the weapon assemblies (maybe save biggest fucking gun) really seem to have the same effect on you a nano-modded napalm launcher does.

[tiw]

After playing around in Ao100 for a while, the Cerberus Armor serves only to make armors with all three pre-existing physical protections (bullet/melee/shrapnel) the absolute best ones to use throughout the game as the result provides protection from all sources of damage. Which basically makes it a waste on anything but exotic armors with all three of those, which I hope isn't the intent (it probably is).

I think the assemblies really only serve to make good equipment into god-tier equipment as pointed out earlier in the thread and not some makeshift tool. I'd really prefer if the game was less focused on getting lucky with item spawns.

[raekuul]

The regular game is perfectly able to be beaten without any specials; it's the million or so medals and other awards that require being lucky with item spawns.

[AlterAsc]

serves only to make armors with all three pre-existing physical protections

Having or not having bullet and shrapnel resistances in the late game does not differ much.Only formers deal it and who cares about them in late game(excluding commandos)?
And melee makes difference only for melee builds.
So in short - i disagree.I belive the best for this assembly is onyx armor.

[Thexare]

*Sigh*, I think he means Unbreakable. In the same sense that the Lava, Cybernetic and Malek's armor "Cannot be destroyed by damage."

I'm fully aware of what he means.

But making it impossible to be destroyed by damage doesn't do anything becuase it doesn't take any damage! Once again, damage won't destroy something that takes no damage.

Now, if you wanted to make it impossible to remove, like Power or Cybernetic, that's another thing entirely. But Angelic Armor can be taken off, and that's what he cited as his example.


EDIT: Wiat a second. Are you talking about changing it from "takes no damage" to "takes damage but is never destroyed"? Sorry, been tired and allergic to everything lately, and kept reading it as adding never-destroyed to it.

[tiw]

EDIT: Wiat a second. Are you talking about changing it from "takes no damage" to "takes damage but is never destroyed"? Sorry, been tired and allergic to everything lately, and kept reading it as adding never-destroyed to it.

I'm pretty sure that was the common understanding here.

[Thexare]

Man I hate when I make an ass of myself.

Carry on!