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Author Topic: The new strongest build is........?  (Read 2716 times)

Sambojin

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The new strongest build is........?
« on: November 07, 2011, 16:09 »

We've all had a bit of time playing 0.9.9.4 now. Lots of deaths, lots of good finds, probably even a few victories. A couple of versions ago, ammochain was touted as the BEST build, with good modding, good fire speed and good damage with no ammo requirement.

Things have changed. There's 3 classes now, stacks more master traits, "instant" advanced traits for each class and plenty of assemblies and gubbins to play with. So the question is, what's the most powerful and why?

It's all a matter of opinion and your favourite playstyle. But there has to be one (or two) "strongest" builds for each class, surely. I'd like to hear other people's opinions.

Strangely enough, my favourite is still actually MAc. Or MAc/MAD. Mainly because it now requires reloader for both. You can go Rel->Rel and take out the Arena very easily, and then change as you want. Go for some nice plasma death or hardass shottyness, it's your choice. Having the option to go either way for the first few levels allows you to scope out the place, see if there's something amazing early on, then go down your chosen path.

MAc having a shottyman option rounds out the build nicely and badass after any level-up provides the passive defense it was always missing. You can still even go for modding if you want, it just takes a few extra levels to get there.

While MAD is the same, tough, shotgun-y goodness it's always been, except you can tack Survivalist on the end if you want. Yep, 180 life, two natural armour and the ability to heal-up to that limit with any healing sources. With anti-armour shotguns and some great assemblies to back it up. Or you can just slip in whatever other traits you like with the slightly faster MAD limits if you want.

Going for Rel->Rel->BA->SM/SoaB doesn't penalize you one bit, and lets you go down either path happily. Two (assuming you do take SM) extra levels until MAc isn't bad, as you'll have shotgun backup now, and MAD could use a tad of extra damage if you don't want MSur at the end. Both strong builds, just stronger now and happily interlinked for the first few levels.

The strongest? They're up there with the best. Strong, versatile and not lacking in either early or late game? The (MAc?/MAD?) build is that for sure. Either path is a game winner.

HP plasmas and tactical shotties FTW :)

Edit: I meant badass. Too many rapid-fire builds. BA rocks for the arena bonus and to tack MSur on the end of MAD. SoaB not quite so much....
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 20:16 by Sambojin »
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raekuul

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Re: The new strongest build is........?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2011, 19:08 »

I dunno; I've never never never had any luck whatsoever in any game unless I'm playing a defensive build. Maybe it's just me.
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Dorten

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Re: The new strongest build is........?
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2011, 00:25 »

... to tack MSur on the end of MAD.

Is it possible to have two master traits at once now?
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AlterAsc

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Re: The new strongest build is........?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2011, 07:35 »

Never heard of anyone having two master traits at once.I believe it is not possible.
My opinion about some master traits:
MAc is awesome if you use laser rifle/S-modded plasma/play on AoMC.Or hyperblaster if no luck.
MAD has easy requirements, but personally i don't like since it blocks Fin, therefore no WK.
MBD is powerful and ammo-wasteful.I prefer having lots of medpacks so usually not my choice.
MSv - no idea, i'm not going to try this since my offensive capabilities on lvl7 are the same as on lvl1.Definitely not for me.
MGK - reloading is very good, second effect was not understood by me, so no opinion.
MSh - should try someday.
MCe - tried, not for me.
MRM - blocks SoB and DG, benefits are not that high, never tried, and i'm not going to.
MSs - getting it is a pain, but if you have special pistol or heavily-modded one it is very good.Ammo-efficiency and constant knockback.
MFa - very good.Especially if you don't care about clearing lvl and just want to get to stairs.Also good prospects for melee if you take Ber.
MEn - i like it.
MSc - maximum benefit if you are playing Ao100, otherwise you can get cheated.

All that is written above is just my subjective opinion, not serious analysis.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 10:24 by AlterAsc »
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rchandra

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Re: The new strongest build is........?
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2011, 00:38 »

Just doublechecked, and you still can't take two master traits in 0.9.9.4 (tried MAD into Vampyre).  I don't expect that to change, double master traits could be pretty powerful.

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GrimmC

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Re: The new strongest build is........?
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2011, 21:57 »

Not sure what the strongest build is now, but I think Entrenchment could use some work. If Ammochain is the crazy gunner build that lets you never run out of ammo, and Cateye is the crazy accurate gunner build that lets you see enemies from really far away, then Entrenchment should be the gunner build that let's you take a crazy amount of damage. But 30% is pretty weak for that to work.

Firstly, even though it's not part of the trait path, EE is still necessary. You have to worry about ammo so hitting is pretty nice. Still, EE is always a trait away, so by level 8 you can have MEn and EE2. No biggie I guess. (Unless you're not playing on UV that is.)

Still, 30% is still a bit weaksauce. Let's take the example of Viles. 30% plasma resistance brings it down to 8 dmg from one Vile attack. TAN (2) - RedArmor/2 (2) = 4 damage, or 8%. But since Entrenchment blocks Finesse, the Vile is almost certain to act twice...meaning you'll likely get hit for 16% damage at once. i.e., almost as much as you would have gotten nailed without MEn. (If you're on UV, you'll probably see Viles before you have Red Armor, bringing that up to a cool 20%.) And are you gonna kill Archy in two turns? Certainly not, more like 3 or 4!

Moreover, that resistance only gets applied if you're chainfiring. You'll certainly get snuck a few times. Of course, if you get surrounded, you have to debate standing your ground or breaking for cover...which means you're probably getting hurt either way.

It just doesn't seem effective. Blocking Finesse seems to be the killer. Making the resistance only work on chainfire seems to create some sort of bizarre active/passive combination, passive defensive that either totally works or totally doesn't. Maybe a chainfire weapon should just be in your hands, like Malicious Knives?

Not sure what the solution is here, but I think this trait needs to be tweaked a lot.
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AlterAsc

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Re: The new strongest build is........?
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2011, 06:42 »

30% is not high by itself but there are more sources than just it:
Berserk gives you total of 90% all. And since you can take it Ber and the fact that being hit for 17 damage unmodified isn't rare for late game all major fights will be in berserk.
Red armor gives you 55% total of fire res, fireproof red gives you 75%, reducing revenants and mancubi damage to one usually.
Cerberus gives you 95% fire and acid, 80% plasma.Not as high as berserk but reliable.Arachnotrons still hurt with volleys of lots of one damage.
Envirosuit gives +25% to acid and fire.
So with all other things you do take crazy amount of fire and do not care even a bit about it.Or care enough to waste 0.1s to use consumable and continue one-vs-all battle.

So after all i think that 30% is good.
And Fin isn't that much of a problem.

EE isn't necessery, just take one lvl of WK and create assault rifle/hyperblaster.
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Sambojin

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Re: The new strongest build is........?
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2011, 07:04 »

Yeah sorry, my bad. Befuddled, drunken texting. No double masters. On another point.......

I've played a lot of marine builds (the whole idea of a bit of extra life and heaps of zerk/inv time is great compared to normal), a fair few scout builds (Int(2) is still an amazing thing) and a couple of technician builds.

Technicians win, hands down.

Instant WK is nice. It lets you go for those lovely hyperblasters/tac RLs whenever you have the bits. Or a tac shotty on the first power mod you find. And they're game changers. It's like you got mini-ammo-chain with 3xfinesse with the first plasma rifle you find or a "possibly-slightly-better" ML after a few bulks, as long as the mods come by. Not quite, but damn near a guaranteed early, good, weapon. The hyperblaster is 2/3 made after the court, or a tac shotty half done from the word go. And you'll always dump mod packs into your gear, not into your backpack or onto the ground. That's nice, good weapons, good armour, on demand (you find it, next level-up you can use it).

The main thing, in fact the only thing, is:
You can use medikits whenever the hell you please. In like 0.1sec (or is it instant?). That large medikit you're carrying isn't a tactical fallback, or a replacement for a health globe. It's a free life. Whatever, whenever, no matter the build. Free run-time, free life, free re-equip/reload time.

Damn that's good. Almost too good. Mod up some big armours, carry heaps of medikits, build for your weapon. Damn good.

My actual favourite (and probably better than MAD/MAC? style) is a technician with:
Fin->Jug->SoaB->SoaB->TH->TH->SoaB->whatever traits for passive defense. TaNx2+BA usually, then Ironman out whatever is left.

Just dump WK(1) in the second you find your first plasma rifle, and do the arena/court/wall thing. Ag/Tech the rifle and the moment you can, make a hyperblaster and never look back. Jug protects you well early, nice red armours (P/B) gets you to hell and a rapid-fire plasma/hyperblaster does wonders all game once it gets going. One tech mod after the court and you're faster than the old ammo-chain, and more accurate than the new one. After finding one tech mod you have:

Better accuracy.
Faster fire time.
Still slightly irrelevant ammo costs.
As many free lives as you can carry medikits.

One level earlier than the old, better with all weapons (not just shotties) than the new. It's a no master build. Take what trait you want, whenever, no blocking here.

It's the "Do everything just as you did it in 0.9.9.1 ammochain, just a level earlier, with a technician using assemblies, you've got free lives and tracking maps and shit" build.

It's right up there too. Might need a shorter name though :)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 07:26 by Sambojin »
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AlterAsc

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Re: The new strongest build is........?
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2011, 08:47 »

Quote
you're faster than the old ammo-chain, and more accurate than the new one
And consumes ammo 5(3+2 from TH) times faster?
Also MAc doesn't block Fin or WK, you can get them a bit later.
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Sambojin

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Re: The new strongest build is........?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2011, 15:49 »

It doesn't block finesse, but this one gets it along the way (primarily for juggler). It also doesn't block ANY traits other than a few masters, and as long as you do the arena/court run you'll probably have a hyperblaster shortly after you find or loot a plasma rifle. And an Ag/Tech'd plasma rifle isn't exactly bad in any case.

5 plasma for (2D4+3)x5 plasma damage is nice at under half a second a shot and with it's great accuracy, every shot counts. Bursty enough to kill (40 average plasma damage in under 1/2 a second), cheap enough to keep going (8 bursts on non-chainfire), doesn't block anything. Plus you can juggle in any other stuff you want as the situation merits. You can also tote around a Tech/Tech/Bulk plasma as a spare if you really want to up your DPS.

I love the new MAc. It's just that a technician with the old MAc build sort of MAc-daddies it. You still need to worry about ammo a bit (which you don't with MAc). 10 shots from a cell slot, 8 in the gun, any light enemies die in one burst, heavies in two. Even easier with a backpack or on harder difficulties. It's not exactly ammochain good, but..... It's just better in every other way (accuracy, fire-speed, options, instant-health-packs). Picking up ammo whenever plasma is around isn't exactly hard, plus you've got any other weapon you want instantly with quick-keys or your prepared slot.

It really, really works. Really, really well :)

Son of MAc? MAc pt 2:The revenge? MAcDaddy? TechMAc? The artist formerly known as MAc?
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