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Author Topic: [U|99%|17|YASD] It's Impossible  (Read 2184 times)

GrimmC

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[U|99%|17|YASD] It's Impossible
« on: November 27, 2011, 10:54 »

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (v.0.9.9.4) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 MADman 3, level 11 Cacodemon Warrant Officer Marine,
 incinerated by an arch-vile on level 17 of the Phobos base.
 He survived 120525 turns and scored 143056 points.
 He played for 1 hour, 54 minutes and 50 seconds.
 He was a man of Ultra-Violence!

 He killed 663 out of 665 hellspawn. (99%)
 He was a real killing machine...

 He saved himself 4 times.

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 8
  Levels visited   : 4
  Levels completed : 4

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  Hell Armorer Badge
  UAC Star (bronze cluster)
  Hell Champion Medal

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  .......=====.............==..............==.====...#...0..=
  ......%=====............====..^.........========...#......=
  .......=====.............==.............======.=...#.......
  ###.....=====............=...............===.==...0#.......
  ........=====.............==..............=====....#.......
  =.......=.===...........|.==..+..............=.....####+###
  =.....==.===..............}=\....V.................#.......
  ==.#.===.................................%.........###+#/##
  ==.#=====........................................../.0.....
  =..##==#===####.%..#.#####+##/###################+##.......
  *.......==...........V........X.....}..........#...#.##...}
  ...#...#.=.......%.......##........}..0.##.....#...#.##....
  ...#...#==................#.........=.=.##.....+...#.......
  ==.#...#=...=......................=.=...|...>.#...#.......
  ===#..==...===.....................==......##..#...#....##.
  ===#..==..=.=.............##......==....##.##..#...#.##.##.
  ==.#..==..===.............##...^=====...##.....#...#.##....
  .=....=#==..==..................=====..........#...#.......
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/90   Experience 52340/11
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +0  ToDmg Ranged +1  ToDmg Melee +1

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Marine

    Ironman          (Level 3)
    Tough as nails   (Level 2)
    Son of a bitch   (Level 1)
    Reloader         (Level 2)
    Badass           (Level 1)
    Shottyman        (Level 1)
    Army of the Dead (Level 1)

  TaN->Rel->Bad->Rel->SM->MAD->TaN->Iro->Iro->Iro->SoB->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   nothing
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   modified shotgun (9d3) [1/1] (P1)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   modified protective boots [2/2] (100%) (A)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   nothing

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a]   double shotgun (8d3)x3 [2/2]
    [b]   micro launcher (5d5) [1/1]
    [c]   modified plasma rifle (1d7)x6 [0/40] (S1)
    [d]   modified BFG 9000 (10d8) [0/130] (B1)
    [e]   fireproof red armor [2/4] (32%)
    [f]   modified chainsaw (4d6) (A)
    [g]   shotgun shell (x50)
    [h]   shotgun shell (x50)
    [i]   shotgun shell (x11)
    [j]   rocket (x4)
    [k]   power cell (x30)
    [l]   large med-pack
    [m]   large med-pack
    [n]   envirosuit pack
    [o]   thermonuclear bomb
    [p]   technical mod pack
    [q]   bulk mod pack
    [r]   Hellwave Pack
    [s]   Arena Master's Staff
    [t]   plasteel boots [2/2] (86%)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Acid       - internal 0%    torso 0%    feet 25% 

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    89 former humans
    60 former sergeants
    35 former captains
    143 imps
    65 demons
    143 lost souls
    29 cacodemons
    23 barons of hell
    18 hell knights
    1 arachnotron
    10 former commandos
    12 pain elementals
    17 arch-viles
    8 mancubi
    6 revenants
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 shambler
    1 Arena Master

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 6 he stormed the Chained Court.
  He defeated the Hell Arena Master!
  On level 6 he assembled a tactical armor!
  On level 6 he found the Arena Master's Staff!
  Entering level 7 he was almost dead...
  On level 9 he assembled a fireproof armor!
  On level 9 he entered Hell's Armory.
  He destroyed the evil within and reaped the rewards!
  On level 10 he assembled a micro launcher!
  On level 11 he ventured into the Halls of Carnage.
  On level 15 he encountered the Phobos Hellgate.
  On level 16 he assembled a fireproof armor!
  On level 16 he found the Hellwave Pack!
  On level 17 he stumbled into complex full of arch-viles!
  On level 17 he finally incinerated by an arch-vile.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 You open the door.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : an arch-vile (unhurt) [m]ore | floor
 The missile hits the arch-vile. The missile hits the arch-vile. The missile
 hits the arch-vile. The missile hits the arch-vile. You are engulfed
 in flames!
 You dodge!
 You prepare the shotgun! You are engulfed in flames!
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : an arch-vile (wounded) [m]ore | floor
 You are engulfed in flames!
 You reload the shotgun with shotgun shell.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : an arch-vile (wounded) [m]ore | floor
 You are engulfed in flames!
 You dodge! You die!... Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 207 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 190 of those were killed.
 1 of those @was killed by something unknown.
 6 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 7 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 3 souls destroyed the Cyberdemon...
 1 sacrificed itself for the good of mankind.
 2 killed the bastard and survived.

--------------------------------------------------------------

So named "MADman 3" because this is my third major attempt to get 100% kills on UV. For me 100% is the only true win. Anyone can play keep-away and run down the stairs whenever things get hairy. (Hell, if I wanted to do that, I would have played as a scout.) I could have won with less than 100% with both MAD and MEn in previous runs. And yet something like this always happens.

Killed 17 (seventeen!) of those damn buggers, more than Mancubi & Revenants combined, before one finally fried me at the end. As the mortem will tell you, I ducked back around the door, heading towards the Full Health Globe in the corner, thinking I would save my medpacks. (I was just plinking at them with a power-modded shotgun at this point.) And got corner-shot by the only other remaining Archvile. Oh, the irony. Had I realized how much damage an otherwise unmodded sniper-packed Plasma Rifle does, I would have been storing up plasma cells for a moment like this.

I understand and support that there should always be a certain amount of randomness in a roguelike. But if you have multiple medpacks, several suits of armor, stacks of ammo, and maybe even some phase devices, and you STILL get smoked in situations which appear frequently, it seems that there is something out of balance. If the only way to get past these situations is stumbling upon a lucky invulnerability or berserk, I would say that's just 100% reliance on luck.

And with this I conclude that it is impossible for a man of normal capacity to beat UV w/100% kills. Here's hoping for a significant change to Archvile behavior in the next release. This is of course, just my opinion.

For now, I guess I'll try UV/MEn one last time, or else try my hand at Ao100...

Note: Now that I looked at it, sometime before I got smoked by those last two Viles, I picked up 30 power cells. Would it have been enough....?
Logged

thelaptop

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Re: [U|99%|17|YASD] It's Impossible
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2011, 11:41 »

Well here's the thing, you had the medpacks, you just thought that you could save on them and head for the health globe down south.  So in some sense, it wasn't the fact that you didn't have the material to deal with the RNG, you just chose to take another course of action that led to ruin.  The situation you've described as being unbalanced can thus be reinterpreted as playing too conservatively.  Sometimes the supplies need to be used and not hoarded up -- any death with med packs still in the inventory was a death that could have been prevented.

I wish you luck with your YAAM attempt on UV.
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raekuul

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Re: [U|99%|17|YASD] It's Impossible
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2011, 11:45 »

any death with med packs still in the inventory was a death that could have been prevented.

You try surviving 50 points of damage in one turn.
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AlterAsc

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Re: [U|99%|17|YASD] It's Impossible
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2011, 12:02 »

Why not go with MAc for 100% kills on UV?
I saw that you had 111 shells - does not look like enough to get to lvl25 with 100% kills.
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GrimmC

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Re: [U|99%|17|YASD] It's Impossible
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2011, 12:22 »

@thelaptop: There's always a "yeah, but..." The matter is, in general, is it a balanced or unbalanced challenge? Those two medpacks were all the way in the far corner of the level. I was able to kill 2 more Archviles and find those medpacks because of the sniper pack I found. Had I not found it, which is going to be the case 90% of the time in MAD runs, I would have died without them in my inventory.

As I mentioned in the previous post, if you are in a condition where your traits, health, inventory, etc. are all in optimum condition, at or close to the best you can expect at that point of the game, and you still die 75% of the time in certain situations (i.e., Archviles, no cover), it raises some questions.

As far as I can see, right now in DoomRL the only way to effectively deal with Archviles is with a rapid-fire build. It doesn't seem right to limit success to one kind of player. There are only two solutions as I see it:

1) Nerf Archviles.
2) Make rapid-fire weapons more accessible to other builds. Shotguns can be used effectively (though not spectacularly) by any build. Shouldn't any build also be able to use rapid-fire weapons effectively? As it stands, without mods or EE plasma rifles are unusable. Perhaps this is the biggest imbalance.

Now challenge is always a touchy thing. How do we say what is fair, how can things be balanced without being easy? I concede that it's not unreasonable for certain builds (MAc, MEn) to be better at 100% kills than others. But I think every build should have a decent chance at achieving it, at least on UV. Let's save ridiculous/impossible mode for Nightmare!, if we can.

And thank you for the well-wishes, thelaptop. I appreciate the work that you and everyone else does around here. I was just a touch upset when I posted this. But I hope some useful discussion could be fostered.

@AlterAsc: Shells aren't really a problem on MAD like they are with other shotgun builds. With MAD, Barons die with 4 shells on a high roll, etc. And that's without any assemblies or exotics.
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AlterAsc

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Re: [U|99%|17|YASD] It's Impossible
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2011, 12:42 »

I believe that rapid-fire weapons are not good without traits is exactly because they are extremely powerful with right traits and equipment.
Reducing this gap would lead to either making rapid-fire builds even better, or making them useless since you could use rapid-fire weapons effectively without those traits.
Also i heard Arch-viles are going to be nerfed or reworked, not sure what exactly.
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Bloax

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Re: [U|99%|17|YASD] It's Impossible
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2011, 23:15 »

I certainly hope they're going to get reworked.
Reviving anything in sight and blasting you for 11 damage per turn, each turn.

That's just unfair. The archviles are a pain in DOOM2, here they're your nightmares.
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Tesmador

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Re: [U|99%|17|YASD] It's Impossible
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2011, 00:17 »

I like archviles.
And I often fight archviles without rapid-fire.
but sometimes i wish for a rapid fire rocket launcher :)

but to the discussion:
I think when a situation is to hard, everyone can run away. A win don't need 100% kills - thats an extra challenge - and I don't think, that a challange has to be absolutly ballanced.
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MaiZure

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Re: [U|99%|17|YASD] It's Impossible
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2011, 04:29 »

I certainly hope they're going to get reworked.
Reviving anything in sight and blasting you for 11 damage per turn, each turn.

That's just unfair. The archviles are a pain in DOOM2, here they're your nightmares.

Consensus is that more pain is yet to come...we're DOOMed! :P
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