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Author Topic: Light Sources and Running  (Read 5501 times)

Ander Hammer

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Light Sources and Running
« on: December 07, 2011, 09:03 »

Another thing that strikes me as something that may have been pitched, maybe for DRL2. Should I donate already so I can see the dev stuff for myself?

It started as a random thought while dwelling on DoomRL challenge modes. A film-noir type of gameplay vaguely similar to Angel of Darkness: floors cloaked in shadows, with precious few light sources allowing you to get a fix on demons and perhaps letting you hide from their fire. Also, all chainguns become tommyguns, demons become classy dames and there are cigars and whiskey instead of powerups.

Then it sort of morphed into the simple idea of light levels. Doom was all about atmospheric lighting, and having zones of clear visibility for normal (or bonus) to-hit mixed with areas of darkness, where identification and even sighting could be hampered or rendered impossible, would be neat and interesting.

Here's suggestion number two, partly to avoid spamming the forum with threads and partly because I'm certain this has been suggested before, but the search function isn't being very reliable. Being able to break into a sprint is cool and useful, but it'd be nice if you could do it more than once and didn't either have to keep doing it until you got exhausted or 'get tired' with abnormal quickness... more like in real life, or Berserk! RL.
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thelaptop

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Re: Light Sources and Running
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2011, 09:06 »

#2:  Hm.  So a meter of some sort on how much sprinting you can do?
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Sambojin

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Re: Light Sources and Running
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2011, 18:27 »

Even though you do get a pretty good feeling of just how long you can run for, a meter of run-time-left would be very handy.

It could be something as simple as just a percentage indicator next to your "running" status. It would also allow an opportunity for a couple of run-time modifying uniques or assemblies. Even negative ones for things like the gothic set might be cool.
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Cheesybox

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Re: Light Sources and Running
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2011, 20:32 »

If implemented well, static lighting could be an interesting addition to levels (maybe certain specials could have them?)

Having a bar with running would be helpful. Setting it to "running" could cost X energy then every turn afterwards it'll drain by Y per move based on armor/boots/inventory size (bonuses for being under half, not so much penalties for having a full inventory). I agree with the running till exhausted then needing a medpack or globe to be able to run again being kinda silly, though I am a bit biased since that's gotten me killed a couple times.
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Ander Hammer

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Re: Light Sources and Running
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2011, 00:29 »

then every turn afterwards it'll drain by Y per move

Emphasis mine. I'm not sure if it does currently, but running should only deduct from this counter when you're actually running.
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Re: Light Sources and Running
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2011, 07:57 »

I'm not sure if it does currently, but running should only deduct from this counter when you're actually running.
Running also gives you a passive bonus (namely that all enemies have a -3 penalty to their ToHit score) so the constant drain is appropriate.

I imagine it's possible, at the moment, to implement some actual light sources (static or otherwise) into the game. There are, in fact, light flags that are applied to cells as the player moves: potentially one could create custom cells that force extra conditions with these light flags, allowing for more or less visibility (depending on what you want).

Having a toggle to switch running on/off (and only leaves you tired when you actually run out of energy) is probably doable. Having an indicator for how much run you have left could also work, since there's room to put one. (Well, maybe. I don't know if status effect indicators completely cover the bottom row yet.)
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GrimmC

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Re: Light Sources and Running
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2011, 19:40 »

Well! I was actually going to suggest light levels in DoomRL at some point (though I was hoping to see implementation of secrets/enemy room triggers/better teleporters first :-(

But I wholeheartedly support this idea. In fact, now that I know more about how rooms are generated, I know it wouldn't be too hard to include this. There could be different light levels; normal (9 LOS), dim, (5-6) dark (3-4) pitch black (1-2). (Perhaps even the rare "extra bright" for extended vision.) Enemies, naturally, see perfectly fine in the dark. (Alternately, some enemies have night vision, some don't.)

In pitch black rooms (i.e., only 1-2 squares vision), in some cases the lights could flash every x turns, showing enemy locations. Also, whenever an enemy attacks, its position would be revealed in rooms of any darkness. The difficultly, naturally, would be in figuring out where it went afterwards. Perhaps the accuracy penalty could be adjusted in rooms with low light levels, as opposed to normal non-LOS shooting, to make it more difficult...

The chances of encountering a dark room would depend on the level types. i.e., in "city" level, the outside areas would always be at normal brightness, probably same for maze levels. Cave levels would always be at "dim" or below. I would envision this having the most impact on normal and "small room" levels....for some reason, it seems fitting that normal levels would almost always have rooms of varying light levels.

The idea of having light sources is also rad. We could finally find a use for the classic lamps/torches of Doom in DoomRL! Naturally they would only spawn in dark rooms. Of course, there could also be some level events centered around this...such as a "dark maze" level. (Gosh, that would be hellish.) In this instance, light sources would be spawned throughout the level. Perhaps they could even be seen at any distance, as long as they are in the LOS, also lighting up an area of 3-4 squares around them. (Since mazes have so many walls, long-distance spotting will be rare.) This would be a different and challenging way to play DoomRL.

Overall, I think this would make the game even more intense. Since our fanbase is probably only getting more skilled as time goes on, this would be a great way to ratchet up the difficultly without drastically changing any core elements. (i.e., getting rid of corner shooting or something.) Throw in some light-amp goggles and it would be perfect. (Maybe it would also justify blur sphere?) I would love to see this implemented.
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Ander Hammer

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Re: Light Sources and Running
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2011, 12:16 »

Well! I was actually going to suggest light levels in DoomRL at some point (though I was hoping to see implementation of secrets/enemy room triggers/better teleporters first :-(

Quote
(Alternately, some enemies have night vision, some don't.)

+1

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Cave levels would always be at "dim" or below.

and arachnotrons can see in the dark oh god

Quote
The idea of having light sources is also rad. We could finally find a use for the classic lamps/torches of Doom in DoomRL!

Part of what made me suggest this was the ubiquitous braziers and skull torches and such you see in Doom.

Quote
Since our fanbase is probably only getting more skilled as time goes on, this would be a great way to ratchet up the difficultly without drastically changing any core elements.

Or perhaps balance the lessened difficulty if they make R, M, & V more Doom-like and less hax.

Quote
Throw in some light-amp goggles and it would be perfect. (Maybe it would also justify blur sphere?) I would love to see this implemented.

Yes.
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GrimmC

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Re: Light Sources and Running
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2011, 13:36 »

Additional thought: To make it super-clear, the floor could be a different color in such rooms. (With a different color for each light level.)
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Simon-v

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Re: Light Sources and Running
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2011, 14:17 »

Additional thought: To make it super-clear, the floor could be a different color in such rooms. (With a different color for each light level.)
Not strictly necessary, since the change in vision radius is immediately and painfully obvious (Berserk! shows this quite clearly). For the particularly inattentive, a simple message such as "You step into a brightly lit space.", "The light flickers around you." or "You can't see a thing at an arm's distance." would suffice.
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Shinji_Ikari_9th

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Re: Light Sources and Running
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2011, 21:14 »

Not strictly necessary, since the change in vision radius is immediately and painfully obvious (Berserk! shows this quite clearly). For the particularly inattentive, a simple message such as "You step into a brightly lit space.", "The light flickers around you." or "You can't see a thing at an arm's distance." would suffice.

Agreed.  I hope that the God Hand is reading this one.
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Re: Light Sources and Running
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2011, 13:46 »

Rather than use light sources as an LOS-booster, it would be a lot more interesting to give them their own radius, at which point you will be able to make use of it if your (unimpeded) LOS coincides with any of the lighted squares. This is a more realistic approach, and provides a much more dynamic strategy when it comes to using light sources.

Let's use a simple example with cityblock metric (that is, every orthogonal step is 1 unit of distance). Say you're blind past four squares:
Code: [Select]
::::.::::
:::...:::
::.....::
:.......:
....@....
:.......:
::.....::
:::...:::
::::.::::

@ - player
. - visible squares
: - blind squares
The player typically has a LOS of nine squares. If we position a light source that has a radius of five at eleven squares away, we get something that looks like this:
Code: [Select]
::::.:::::::::"""::::
:::...:::::::""""":::
::.....:::::"""""""::
:.......:::..""""""":
....@....:...."$"""""
:.......:::..""""""":
::.....:::::"""""""::
:::...:::::::""""":::
::::.:::::::::"""::::

$ - light source
" - visible-sharing squares
By walking toward the light source, we get to use more of the visible-sharing squares:
Code: [Select]
::::::.:::::::"""::::
:::::...:::::""""":::
::::.....:::.."""""::
:::.......:....""""":
::....@........$"""""
:::.......:....""""":
::::.....:::.."""""::
:::::...:::::""""":::
::::::.:::::::"""::::

::::::::.:::::"""::::
:::::::...:::..""":::
::::::.....:...."""::
:::::............""":
::::....@......$.."""
:::::............""":
::::::.....:...."""::
:::::::...:::..""":::
::::::::.:::::"""::::
If the light source is bigger (seven and nine in the following examples), then we get more out of it as well:
Code: [Select]
::::.:::::::"""""""::
:::...:::::""""""""":
::.....:::.."""""""""
:.......:....""""""""
....@........."$"""""
:.......:....""""""""
::.....:::.."""""""""
:::...:::::""""""""":
::::.:::::::"""""""::

::::.:::::"""""""""""
:::...:::..""""""""""
::.....:...."""""""""
:............""""""""
....@........."$"""""
:............""""""""
::.....:...."""""""""
:::...:::..""""""""""
::::.:::::"""""""""""

This should be more significant with Angband metric, so I think it would work out rather well. We could also have enemies that are attracted to light sources and those that specifically stay away from them.

As mentioned before, it's probably quite possible in 0994's modding system. I might try to make a little test mod and see how well it plays.
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Zalminen

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Re: Light Sources and Running
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2011, 14:34 »

Oo, that would be pretty cool.
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spacedust

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Re: Light Sources and Running
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2012, 06:20 »

A little OT, but I really like the idea of a run-time counter. It would make things more transparent, especially for builds that rely on running, ie some AoSg builds.
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Ander Hammer

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Re: Light Sources and Running
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2012, 13:40 »

Totally on-topic.

In addition to a 'run meter', can we remove the fire-and-forget aspect of running completely? It strikes me as a little weird that you can run for a few seconds, then not ever until your body, regardless of whether or not it's in perfect health, has somehow been repaired... or you run down a staircase.

Take or leave medkits, depending on how fast the marine catches his breath. This wouldn't necessarily make every fight trivial; breaking into a run could require a certain amount of stamina, it could be slower depending on what actions you've been doing recently... etc.

tl;dr take away the marine's caps lock key and let him use shift.
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