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Author Topic: [M|98%|YASD] I don't know how I could've avoid this...  (Read 4934 times)

FantomFang

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[M|98%|YASD] I don't know how I could've avoid this...
« on: January 17, 2012, 16:43 »

Heya, just recently came back to this after a long absence after noticing the graphical beta was up, and decided to start playing it again. Imagine my surprise at how much had changed (thought I'd won when I beat the cyberdemon). Anyways, it was a fun run, and only my second time ever beating him (did two or three dozen runs prior to now, and this was my 5th run since starting it up again) and then I got thrown into a situation I don't know if I could've handle better, so I thought I'd see if anyone had any words of wisdom for me. I was spawned with two arachnotrons within view of me, so I immediately unloaded with my plasma rifle (nuclear plasma rifle + ammochain is hilariously fun, although I didn't get to enjoy it for long), after taking down both of them I was almost dead, and having used up my healing when I got shot from off screen by cybie I moved onwards, only to run into a third arachnotron before I could reach either the medpack or berserk pack in view. Considering I was almost dead, and not thinking I'd have time to run and escape, I used my homing phase device only to find that the stairs were still in his view range and he killed me.

The only thing I could think of would've been to possibly move away from the center of the lvl and try to get congregation to occur (but it's incredibly difficult for me to discern where I am relative to the lvl in the graphics beta, as I can't view the whole map) or to move left instead of right (I guess there were two health globes over there) but I'm wondering if there would've been a better response to the initial situation that wouldn't have whittled down my remaining 50-60% hp to 7% before I ran into the third arachnotron. Maybe switching armor at the start, but I'm not very aware of the time value for that and didn't want to get pummeled while I was changing. Any opinions? Bad luck or easily survivable?

-------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (v.0.9.9.5G) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Derek Yu, level 9 Former Human Private Marine,
 let an arachnotron get him on level 1 of Hell.
 He survived 96395 turns and scored 57122 points.
 He played for 2 hours and 49 minutes.
 He didn't like it too rough.

 He killed 475 out of 482 hellspawn. (98%)
 He held his right to remain violent.

 He saved himself 2 times.

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 7
  Levels completed : 6

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  UAC Star (bronze cluster)
  Hell Champion Medal
  Hell Armorer Badge
  Gatekeeper Bronze Badge
  Brick Bronze Badge
  Arachno Bronze Badge
  Skull Bronze Badge

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  ####=.....###########..#....##.#####.##.##=################
  ###=#^."...##########......#...##=#===.#.=#################
  ####=......#######.....#.^....X.=.====..#==################
  ####==....#.######%......##...#..======#=##.###############
  ###===.#...#######...........^...=======...#.##############
  ##=====...#..##........+..#.....==.=..=.....###############
  ##=====####..##............#...........#.|.################
  ###====###..##...........A..............#.#################
  ####==#^#....#....#..|.......A..........#...###############
  ######=..............##.........#.##.....#.################
  #####.=..............##^....=..###.#...##.A##############==
  ###=#.=............========================================
  ===========================================================
  ===========================================================
  ============================+============================##
  ===================..............############.#############
  ##########>#=..=.................##########################
  #########.###..==.^...........#############################
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/60   Experience 37666/9
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +0  ToDmg Ranged +3  ToDmg Melee +3

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Marine

    Finesse          (Level 1)
    Son of a bitch   (Level 3)
    Reloader         (Level 2)
    Triggerhappy     (Level 2)
    Ammochain        (Level 1)

  SoB->SoB->Rel->TH->TH->Rel->MAc->SoB->Fin->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   tactical armor [1/1] (50%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   nuclear plasma rifle (1d6)x6 [24/24] (A1)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   tactical boots [1/1] (100%)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   BFG 9000 (11d8) [60/100] (P1)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] chaingun (1d6)x4 [40/40] (A1)
    [b] high power chaingun (1d8)x4 [26/26]
    [c] missile launcher (6d6) [2/4]
    [d] BFG 9000 (10d8) [100/100]
    [e] blue armor [2/2] (100%)
    [f] red armor [4/4] (100%)
    [g] red armor [4/4] (100%)
    [h] 10mm ammo (x140)
    [i] rocket (x14)
    [j] rocket (x14)
    [k] power cell (x70)
    [l] power cell (x70)
    [m] power cell (x70)
    [n] power cell (x70)
    [o] power cell (x70)
    [p] technical mod pack
    [q] Arena Master's Staff

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Bullet     - internal 0%    torso 15%   feet 0%   
    Shrapnel   - internal 0%    torso 15%   feet 0%   

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    73 former humans
    49 former sergeants
    9 former captains
    64 imps
    50 demons
    156 lost souls
    21 cacodemons
    12 hell knights
    10 barons of hell
    14 arachnotrons
    3 former commandos
    8 pain elementals
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 shambler
    1 agony elemental
    1 Cyberdemon
    1 Arena Master

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 3 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 4 he stormed the Chained Court.
  On level 4 he found the Arena Master's Staff!
  He defeated the Hell Arena Master!
  On level 7 he witnessed the Wall.
  He massacred the evil behind the Wall!
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  On level 10 he entered Hell's Armory.
  On level 10 he found the Grammaton Cleric Beretta!
  On level 10 he assembled a tactical armor!
  On level 10 he assembled a high power weapon!
  He destroyed the evil within and reaped the rewards!
  On level 11 he assembled a tactical boots!
  On level 12 he ventured into the Halls of Carnage.
  On level 13 he found the City of Skulls.
  He wiped out the City of Skulls.
  On level 14 he ventured into the Spider's Lair.
  He cleared the Lair, kickin' serious spider ass!
  On level 16 he found the Tower of Babel!
  On level 17 he finally let an arachnotron get him.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 There is power cell (x20) lying here.
 You found 20 of power cell.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : an arachnotron (unhurt) [m]ore | floor
 The missile hits the arachnotron. The missile hits the arachnotron. The
 missile hits the arachnotron. You are hit! You are hit! You are hit!
 You are hit! You are hit!
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : an arachnotron (lightly wounded) [m]ore | floor
 The missile hits the arachnotron. You are hit! You are hit! Boom! You are
 hit! Boom!
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : an arachnotron (wounded) [m]ore | floor
 Targeting canceled.
 You use a homing phase device. You feel yanked in an non-existing
 direction! You are hit! You die!... Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 5 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 4 of those were killed.
 And 1 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Logged

byrel

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Re: [M|98%|YASD] I don't know how I could've avoid this...
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2012, 20:57 »

i'm not sure where exactly you came down the stairs, so I don't know for sure if this is feasible. But, if you could see any cover, you could have turned on running (definitely a good idea in any case) and carefully diagonal walked to it. With running and a full tac loadout, you should be slightly faster than an arachnotron. Another possibility is to use one of the arachnotrons for cover from the other one: they're pathetic in melee, so you practically neutralize the one you're next to, and he dies twice as fast.

Yet another possibility is to switch to the missile launcher, and blast them out of sight. Unfortunately, you only had two rounds in the magazine (from pounding Cybie I'd guess).

Or trigger the homing phase immediately. Honestly, I'm surprised you survived taking out the two arachnotrons with no cover, tac armor, and less than full health. The RNG hates me enough to ensure I wouldn't. :)

Basically though, this was bad luck. But not a lot of it, because arachnotron caves are common in hell, and inevitably (at least on the higher difficulty levels) you'll spawn next to a couple eventually. Definitely not "easily survivable" though.
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FantomFang

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Re: [M|98%|YASD] I don't know how I could've avoid this...
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2012, 21:33 »

I was a few spaces southwest of the medpack on the map when I spawned, with one north and one east of me. I may very well have been able to escape going west with run, but ofc I was afraid I'd bumble into yet another spider. And yeah, missile launcher was for pounding on cybie, or at least part of the battle I was using it. The biggest reason i probably survived the two, albeit barely, is i only took one volley from the both of them (shot one twice, then they responded, then finished the one).

You're right about the homing phase though - if I had recognized what the situation would do to me from the start I likely could have simply phased and then gone down stairs before they woke up.
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GrimmC

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Re: [M|98%|YASD] I don't know how I could've avoid this...
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2012, 10:38 »

The best thing would have been to carry more med-packs in the first place. Why were you carrying so much plasma if you had ammochain? I try to carry four large med-packs at all times. The amount spare armor was right, though.

However, as I've said previously, large med-packs are really just second chances for when you screw up, anyway. Arachs don't have the best accuracy...they lose 4% hitrate per distance square. So they start off with a 24% chance of missing, which increases to 40% at a range of 5 squares. Not bad. If you're running, that goes up to 60%. Add in your tac armor set and you should have been able to make it to cover, no problem.

Of course, there was always the possibility of running into other spiders. The only guarantee would have been to have at least two large med-packs. The other thing about Arachs is that they deal plasma damage, which halves your armor protection. So red armor only saves 2 points per hit. Tac/green armor, for all I know, may save 0 points.

So in other words, if you had turned on running and swapped to red armor, you would have lowered their accuracy to 40% on average and saved up to 10 health points, or 20%, per plasma volley. So that would have made quite a difference. I hear you on the graphical beta though. It's MUCH harder to judge distance (but only b/c we're used to ASCII I guess.)

Feel free to check the inventory guide in my signature for more tips...
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FantomFang

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Re: [M|98%|YASD] I don't know how I could've avoid this...
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2012, 10:52 »

The best thing would have been to carry more med-packs in the first place. Why were you carrying so much plasma if you had ammochain? I try to carry four large med-packs at all times. The amount spare armor was right, though.

I'd been saving up plasma for a while, and yeah it was a lot, but I didn't really have anything else to use space on - I'd had 2-3 medpacks in the cybie fight but he got me from offscreen several times (the only time I'd fought him previously was several versions before, where I don't recall him being able to shoot from out of your vision range, but oh well).

Quote
However, as I've said previously, large med-packs are really just second chances for when you screw up, anyway. Arachs don't have the best accuracy...they lose 4% hitrate per distance square. So they start off with a 24% chance of missing, which increases to 40% at a range of 5 squares. Not bad. If you're running, that goes up to 60%. Add in your tac armor set and you should have been able to make it to cover, no problem.

Of course, there was always the possibility of running into other spiders. The only guarantee would have been to have at least two large med-packs. The other thing about Arachs is that they deal plasma damage, which halves your armor protection. So red armor only saves 2 points per hit. Tac/green armor, for all I know, may save 0 points.

So in other words, if you had turned on running and swapped to red armor, you would have lowered their accuracy to 40% on average and saved up to 10 health points, or 20%, per plasma volley. So that would have made quite a difference. I hear you on the graphical beta though. It's MUCH harder to judge distance (but only b/c we're used to ASCII I guess.)

Yeah, graphical beta is great but the lack of knowing my relative position on the map can make judgement calls much harder. And I didn't know arachnotrons missed so much - I'd always assumed that if they unloaded they just pretty much hit (I really haven't had THAT much experience with them) because they were hitscan in Doom iirc. I'm just not very familiar with the mechanics behind a lot of the enemies behaviors.

Quote
Feel free to check the inventory guide in my signature for more tips...
Sounds good, ill give it a look.
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Game Hunter

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Re: [M|98%|YASD] I don't know how I could've avoid this...
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2012, 12:12 »

Arachs don't have the best accuracy...they lose 4% hitrate per distance square. So they start off with a 24% chance of missing, which increases to 40% at a range of 5 squares. Not bad. If you're running, that goes up to 60%. Add in your tac armor set and you should have been able to make it to cover, no problem.
I just want to note that this is a really bad interpretation of the accuracy system. You're better off reading this Wiki page in order to understand it. Arachnotrons have +3 accuracy, which translates to a 74% chance to hit per shot. At peak vision it's 50% instead.

Some things that could have helped you out:
  • Equipping better armor. Even though it's plasma damage, Arachnotrons deal very little damage per shot (1d5), so red armor would have caused you to take less damage.
  • Using missile launcher or BFG. Even if they're not necessarily one-hit kills, they deal pretty good knockback, giving you time to run or make the most of your inventory.
Since Ammochain lacks accuracy, it's hard to bet on hitting enemies ASAP in a swarm situation such as this. Depending on where you started, finding a crevice where they will likely follow you into melee range would give you a major advantage (since they have pitiful melee damage when compared to the plasma volley). On HNTR it's typical to expect 4-5 Arachnotrons in a cave level, so don't think running into a new area will make much of a difference.

Still, for the amount of experience you had, this seems like it was a really nice run. So congrats to that.
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FantomFang

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Re: [M|98%|YASD] I don't know how I could've avoid this...
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2012, 12:53 »

I just want to note that this is a really bad interpretation of the accuracy system. You're better off reading this Wiki page in order to understand it. Arachnotrons have +3 accuracy, which translates to a 74% chance to hit per shot. At peak vision it's 50% instead.

Some things that could have helped you out:
  • Equipping better armor. Even though it's plasma damage, Arachnotrons deal very little damage per shot (1d5), so red armor would have caused you to take less damage.
  • Using missile launcher or BFG. Even if they're not necessarily one-hit kills, they deal pretty good knockback, giving you time to run or make the most of your inventory.
Since Ammochain lacks accuracy, it's hard to bet on hitting enemies ASAP in a swarm situation such as this. Depending on where you started, finding a crevice where they will likely follow you into melee range would give you a major advantage (since they have pitiful melee damage when compared to the plasma volley). On HNTR it's typical to expect 4-5 Arachnotrons in a cave level, so don't think running into a new area will make much of a difference.

Still, for the amount of experience you had, this seems like it was a really nice run. So congrats to that.

Thanks. Yeah, there's just a lot of information and such that I haven't picked up as of yet for DoomRL. I'm actually pretty good at the roguelikes I've played before, like ADOM (I've won with monk, beastfighter, ranger, and wizard and ascended a wizard, although I'll never repeat that because ascensions are such a drag), so the general skillset is there (patience, decision making, patience, and did I mention patience? xD ). There's just lots of things I've yet to pick up to work on the "decision-making" process, such as my lack of understanding of certain enemies. That'll just come with time though, as while I like using the wiki to find assemblies and plan out builds and such nothing beats practical experience in learning the enemies.
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GrimmC

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Re: [M|98%|YASD] I don't know how I could've avoid this...
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2012, 20:07 »

I just want to note that this is a really bad interpretation of the accuracy system. You're better off reading this Wiki page in order to understand it. Arachnotrons have +3 accuracy, which translates to a 74% chance to hit per shot. At peak vision it's 50% instead.

Interesting...I never put all of that information together. I don't actually understand how you got that number, to tell the truth. Perhaps some of this information could be consolidated across the different wiki pages...
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Re: [M|98%|YASD] I don't know how I could've avoid this...
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2012, 20:48 »

I don't actually understand how you got that number, to tell the truth.
Whoops, bit of a typo there.  I meant that +3 accuracy translates to 84% (74% is actually for +2).

The accuracy formula itself is quite simple, just so long as you remember that base accuracy (zero) is 10 on that accuracy table. After that it's just a matter of remembering what gives you what: drop one point for every three tiles away the attacker is from the target; difficulty increments accuracy by -1/0/+1/+2/+2, from easiest to hardest; and so on.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by consolidating the information across other pages: whenever accuracy is referenced on the Wiki, it tends to reference that page. I did notice that it wasn't linked on the enemy stats pages, so that's been taken care of. But, as an example, it was linked on the main enemy page where stats are described.
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