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Author Topic: Shotgun Build discussion.  (Read 13622 times)

Ashannar

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2012, 03:44 »

I've only found one, but from my limited experience it seemed consistently precise.
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HenWen

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2012, 20:25 »

Klear:  Don't worry about the hyperblaster "spoiler" because it is actually incorrect.  TAA won't give you a hyperblaster.

As far as reloader vs: juggler - the last version I played (9.9.6 (?)) juggler was clearly superior because shotguns had a higher base reload speed (1.5 or so)?.  Thus the speed increase from reloader was not enough to keep enemies reliably knocked back.  I always carried multiple shotguns around for Hell's Arena.  Now, I think juggler is still probably better, but reloader is stronger as a result of the reload time decrease.
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Pricklyman

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2012, 03:25 »

Klear:  Don't worry about the hyperblaster "spoiler" because it is actually incorrect.  TAA won't give you a hyperblaster.

As far as reloader vs: juggler - the last version I played (9.9.6 (?)) juggler was clearly superior because shotguns had a higher base reload speed (1.5 or so)?.  Thus the speed increase from reloader was not enough to keep enemies reliably knocked back.  I always carried multiple shotguns around for Hell's Arena.  Now, I think juggler is still probably better, but reloader is stronger as a result of the reload time decrease.

Juggler may be superior in the short run, but overall in anything but a MSH build - just go straight for the master you want!

However a masterless shotgun build naturally - can more than accommodate Juggler without a doubt!
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Sambojin

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2012, 00:19 »

Just a skew of random thoughts on shotgun builds......

Shotguns don't actually get all that more damaging through leveling. They get more versatile. Rel/SM and Fin/Jug does up your DPS due to lack of reloading constraints, but doesn't really up damage during firetime. You move better, you swap better, you reload better, but you don't really do more damage. Mods up your damage. Power mods specifically. Assemblies up your damage. They all use power mods. So find some power mods. They give you a versatile character that can do damage.

A shotgun is an oddity of sorts. An area weapon that doesn't destroy items yet can obtain some knockback quite easily. The weapons are common as muck. It has fairly large ammo stacks for the damage caused. The problem being that these ammo stacks get rarer and rarer the deeper you go into the game. Sometimes you won't get another shell during the last 5 levels. It's like reverse plasma. You get a heap in the first five levels where it does wonders. Then you need to mod/build/play your doomguy and scrounge every shell from that point. Plasma is easy, every character can slap on some EE and some TH and walk over the game. No master traits needed, ammo is abundant. Shells, not so much. The right build, the right (modded) weapon, the right play, and you're better than anyone. From the first level onward.

Shottyman is ace, simply because it brings your single and double shotties back online. A double essentially doesn't work for any more than two blasts (or four with alt-fire) even with weapon swapping and juggler. Shottyman lets you play active defense/offense all game. Juggler caps out.

Reloader is also good. It works for all weapons, not just your shotguns. RL/ML/BFGs are all your big guns that want some reloader. Shotguns want reloader. Therefore reloader is good in a shotty build for all the weapons you'll need to use.

A technician can have a really easy time of things by taking reloader as their first trait and putting their tech mod on that first level shotgun. I've got to the Mortuary without finding a combat shotty. You can make it there with a tech modded shotty. Then power mod the assault shotty.

Tactical shotguns are the epitome of all a shotgun build wants. Ignore my last bit. Keep the tech mod. One power mod and you're there. In fact, combat shotties are the epitome of a shotgun build. Then you just want a couple of mods and you're there.

Playing a double shotty build is the funnest way to play shotguns. Especially AoD DB shotgun builds. Just pretend you're a melee build with a square or twos extra range, Close. Laugh. Boom. Laugh. Side-step. Laugh. Boom. Laugh, It's fun. It'll make you wonder why there is no "DB shotty kills" medals.

Juggler is great, but only to a point. It's versatile, it's quick to get, it suits all weapons. Unfortunately you'll need all those slots that are currently carrying weapons for ammo/armour/health and a couple of consumables if you want to play it safely. A double shotty (backup/p.elementals/skulls) and a main shotgun is all you want in a shotty build. Any other weapons are just your big hitters (RL/ML/BFG). Juggler caps out but starts off really strong. Reloader never caps out, neither does shottyman, neither does Int(2). Ever.

A scout with Int(2) by second level is just stupid for shotgun builds. It's perfect cornering, great damage mitigation, excellent shotgun scouting, ammo conservation plus and a good feeling of general safety. It's really good. Like, too good for shotguns. In fact, it'll get you up to and through the wall with the greatest of ease (by which time you have all the weapons you could want).

AoD is better than every other shotgun build. Fireangel doesn't work. Shottyhead isn't "just" a shotgun build. AoD gives you great passive defense, great active defense, good tactical defense and nice damage regardless of the situation. Or what weapons you find. Or even what armour. It's great with a tactical shotgun. But it works with a normal shotgun. It works with any shotgun really. It's THE shotgun build. Every other build does lots of other weapons well. AoD? Just shotguns, really well. And I guess reloading all your stuff. Like shotguns. Really well.



See, I told you. Just random thoughts. I'm tired.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 00:23 by Sambojin »
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Pricklyman

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2012, 00:51 »

Nononoo....Tactical Shotgun isn't the epitome of Shotgun builds...

P-modded Tactical Shotgun...

All you shotgun nerds just jumped for joy...I know you did! (I know I did...)
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ih8regin

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2012, 01:11 »

PPP super shotgun sounds better IMHO :) just running with this and watching them fly all across the level into LAAAAVAAAAA! :D (well, I'm one P mod short, so it's PP super shotty instead) And yes, a tactical shotgun is one piece of respect, even if not P-modded. (Perhaps I should make me another in this run and P-mod it just for the sake of it?)
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ultimate26

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2012, 09:57 »

The thing is, tactical/combat shotties dont really have issues with reload, if player properly they will kill most enemies without having to reload.

For me juggler is still better because once i am done with my 5 shots, i swap to double shotty and the enemy is guaranteed to die.

I never find myself reloading in front of the enemy unless i want them to approach for cornershooting.

Instead of having 2 levels of reload and shottyman id rather have 2 SOB or 2 TAN, because they actually make a bigger difference than just saving time.

They keep me alive and kill things faster, reloader simply lets you fight faster but if it died right away then it wouldnt matter.
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N o i r

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2012, 11:57 »

I recently played a shotty-oriented Tech build on UV, with positive outcome, and the main combat traits I choose were

Rel x 2
Fin x 3
Jug
HR x 2

So basically, rather than "kill them fast and don't get killed", I was more like "run behind a corner fast, then kill them". Worked like a charm for me.
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Cotonou

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2012, 13:41 »

Meh, both Juggler and Reloader are at the weak end of the scale.  Reloader is obsoleted by the tactical shotgun, while Juggler only comes into play when you lose control of a situation.  It would be interesting to see a survey of mortems which have taken Reloader 3 to see how much the community likes the skill.  I suspect the results will be far, far behind Hellrunner, Finesse, and Nails.
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Ashannar

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2012, 13:41 »

Get your move speed to about half your double-shotty reload time (a common scenario, even with 2 rel, I assure you) and tell me that shottyman doesn't save time.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2012, 14:56 »

While i do believe that Reloader is a weak trait, Juggler is not about losing control.It's also about being jack-of-all trades that can wield a lot of different weapons effectively and make instant follow-ups with another weapon after firing.
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Demetrious

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2012, 00:28 »

AoD is better than every other shotgun build. Fireangel doesn't work.

Wining by fiat of being the only real "shotgun" build that currently isn't bugged isn't much of a win in my book.

Quote
AoD gives you great passive defense, great active defense,

What? It blocks Hellrunner, which is the required trait for active defense. And even with tactical boots, you're going to need Red armor to survive on HMP and up. It doesn't much matter anyways, because active defense is, in my experience, a big, bad, horrible joke - unless, of course, you're using Fireangel.

Fireangel, after all, lets you dodge Arch-Viles and Revenants. Arch-Viles and Revenants. With Fireangel, killing the Cyberdemon without taking damage is a cinch. Especially since it requires Dodgemaster, and if you're lucky the Arch-Vile or Revenant's attack is the "first" one in the round (usually the Vile.) And it undoes one of the major failings of active defense; the fact that splash damage from shots hitting walls usually nails you anyway. It also makes you effectively immune to Mancubi.

Given all that, the fact my shotties bounce off enemies doesn't faze me in the slightest. Actually getting up in their face and unloading a double shotgun - or a focused double shotgun - or knocking them back into lava and laughing like a maniac - or just switching to my accuracy-modded rocket launcher - is pretty easy. Especially when you factor in Finesse 2 and a tactical shotgun, all the armor in the world can't save thine enemies. (The beauty of shotgun builds using rocket-launchers for back up is 2 ranks of Reloader, slap a few Agility mods on it and hey, presto. Especially with Juggler.) Hellrunner/Dodgemaster is merely for reaching corners or getting out of bad situations, which the RNG and/or monsters will put you in frequently without you having a single thing to say about it. As Noir seemingly discovered, shotguns never kill fast enough at max range to allow real run-and-gun tactics, but Fireangel keeps you safe from a vast amount of damage that would otherwise hit you as you flee for your corners or undertake the occasional double-rush. (Too bad it's bugged in the current version, we'll just have to wait.)

You'd think that AoD would be the "stand and deliver!" build, what with the focus on standing still and dishing out massive shotgun damage that ignores armor, but the requirements of AoD basically require you to suck at everything. Blocking Finesse is harsh, harsh, harsh. It directly removes your ability to "stand and deliver." If you can't avoid damage, then you had best be dishing it out really fast. As in, fast enough to stand toe-to-toe with a few barons on HMP and come out on top. And even with piercing damage, without Finesse, that just ain't happening, chum. Without Finesse, you'll never get Whizkid, either, so better armors and really nasty shotguns are permanently out of your reach. The armor is especially bad, since passive defense is so reliant on it.

Tried to clear the Wall recently with a passive shotty build. I'd just gotten AoD, figured, hey, time to kick Barons in the face. Ended up switching to my accuracy-modded rocket launcher quite soon, because AoD just wasn't cutting it on my shotgun. Eventually I got tired of playing peek-a-boo, so I switched to Running and sprinted to the other side of the wall, shooting a crowd of 4-5 barons with my double shotty, moving to dodge/reload, and firing again. It eventually worked... eventually. On Barons already softened up by blind rocket bombardment. And my big bad tough armored dude was still at 32% health by the time that was done - as one might expect from a heavy armored dude without Hellrunner. And this was with tac boots, no less.

In short, the supposed offensive power of AoD just can't offset the lack of survivability. The only advantage is ammo efficiency for later levels, but with the addition of shell boxes to the game, even that is lessened.

I want to love AoD. I really do. But several shotgun/chainsaw wielding badasses named "Ash" have died in Hell to no avail trying to use that useless trait tree. Clearly I'm doing it wrong, and if you could educate me in the error of my ways, I'd adore you forever.

Seriously. What am I missing, here?
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ih8regin

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2012, 02:20 »

I believe AoD is all about the elephant gun and tactical shotty. Get either and pwn. Tac will do most of your usual scouting, while elephant will let you cornershoot, even while it's unbelievably slow to reload, you will likely be even slower to move. BTW, Tac's blast deals enough at the topmost range to lower some nastier beasts with AoD. I did do a win with an AoD, on HNTR, and the cyberdemon was a BEAST - but, it was in 0995, and I IIRC had plate armor. Here you would want a fireshield JUST to beat the cyberdemon, and likely a melee armor to beat the mastermind. "Ballistic ballistic vest" - hum.

I believe AoD is overnerfed. Get PS shotty and lay waste to the same extent as you would do with AoD, and have hellrunner/finesse to the top as you see fit. Even simple NORMAL shotgun with both will shine better than elephant with AoD. IMHO.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2012, 03:17 »

Guys, please call Army of the Dead MAD, not AoD.AoD is usually either Angel of Death or Angel of Darkness -_-.
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Klear

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2012, 03:23 »

I want to love AoD. I really do. But several shotgun/chainsaw wielding badasses named "Ash" have died in Hell to no avail trying to use that useless trait tree. Clearly I'm doing it wrong, and if you could educate me in the error of my ways, I'd adore you forever.

Seriously. What am I missing, here?

Ash is from Army of Darkness, not Army of the Dead, so you don't need this trait to roleplay him. I'd suggest juggler in such a build anyway, to switch between shotgun/chainsaw easiely. In any case, we need the Boomstick as a unique shotgun.
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