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Author Topic: [Fixed][0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs  (Read 6159 times)

Holo

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[Fixed][0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« on: March 13, 2012, 07:42 »

Angel of Darkness, on medium both times.

If you are a Marine:
-The stairs show up like you are a scout.
-Map does not properly undraw for the challenge out of line of sight. (this has been reported before with screenshot)

If you play a Scout:
-The stairs are NOT drawn for you. (not sure if they should be or not, given the challenge)

For any Character type:
-Mobs respawn as if it was N!. If this is part of the Challenge feature, it is not listed anywhere that i can find. (tested on medium only)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 23:44 by tehtmi »
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2012, 07:53 »

1. the stairs show up as a marine for me, too.
2. not sure if scouting was allowed before in AoD.
3. AoD is supposed to be unfair, remember?
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2012, 08:03 »

1. definitely a bug
2. Always was the case, same with I think AoRA and AoPC
3. It's a surprise!
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2012, 10:45 »

1 is a bug, 2 is like it should work, 3, wrether intentional or not, should be removed. AoD is supposed to be unfair, but not THAT unfair. It also kind of beats the purpose of difficulty levels, since all of them are nothing compared to Nightmare, even if it works just like ITYTD with monster respawn.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2012, 10:46 »

It's not so bad actually, as long as you don't try to get YAAM. I've had much more difficult time beating angel of impatience.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2012, 12:59 »

3, wrether intentional or not, should be removed. AoD is supposed to be unfair, but not THAT unfair. It also kind of beats the purpose of difficulty levels, since all of them are nothing compared to Nightmare, even if it works just like ITYTD with monster respawn.

This challenge serves a useful purpose. In addition to being different and challenging in its own right, it's as you said - N! is far and away harder than any other difficulty. Turning on one of its difficulty enhancers does not defeat the purpose of difficulty levels in AoD - removing this feature would defeat the whole purpose of AoD. If respawning monsters were removed, it would simply be 'play through DoomRL with slightly less vision radius', an easy challenge where you skulk in corridors and smaller rooms rather than risking wandering around big open spaces, instead of a hard one where monsters respawn like on Nightmare!

There are many, many, many ways to make sure a monster is dead and/or gone. Kill them on doors (lol), kill them on top of other corpses (they don't stack), knock them back with a shotgun or rocket or something and into water/acid/lava, or blow them up: kill them near walls and dodge a fireball or shoot a rocket there, rocket jump near them, get hit by an imp while adjacent to them (preferably they'll hit another monster, but doomguy will often have to do), direct hit them with lots of explode, hit something with a rocket that's within spitting distance of a corpse, push an ever-present barrel close enough to gib them, use a skull if you're desperate... respawning monsters is starting to sound not unfair enough. (As for 'gone', press '>' on a staircase. AoD does give double xp, and not every game has to be a YAAM.)

You can play AoD to get used to the monsters respawning bit first, and then when you're good at shooting down things you can't see and double-tapping their corpses, you can go on to N! in some other game, trading your vision back for faster, more aggressive phobos 3 hell knights.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2012, 14:27 »

The real problem with the AoD is just the challenge description which doesn't even hint at the respawn. As it is, it just feels like a bug.
A simple fix would be to make the description something like this:

You think the DoomRL levels are dark? Try this challenge, and feel a bit of painful claustrophobia. And the monsters, oh the monsters...
As a bonus to all that is injust in this challenge, you level up twice as fast.


Adding that cryptic part would not spoil the surprise but would still tell the player to expect something other than just the extra dark.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2012, 14:40 »

I'd actually like to redesign the "extra monsters" part of Angel of Darkness so that it's not a matter of enemies respawning but, rather, enemies simply spawning out of your vision, probably close by for added danger/convenience. Whether or not this results from simply being in the level, or enough time not attacking, or whatever, I'm not sure, but I think it's a little more in line with the darkness aspect of things. Plus it's a lot easier for the game to indicate if something shows up.

AoD could use some brainstorming in general: I know we've had some ideas in the past that are pretty amusing. Things like your vision slowly fading as time passes instead of a static reduction.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2012, 15:42 »

About monsters respawning: do you have monsters from a given difficulty? Or do you have N! monsters even though you have chosen the ITYTD?

Given the amount of bugs in this version I would say it is a bug as well.

If you want to make it a hard challenge just change the only possible difficulty to Nightmare.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2012, 15:45 »

Nightmare isn't difficult only because enemies respawn. I haven't beaten UV outside AoMC, HMP still gives me trouble, but I have won AoD in one or two tries. It's not that tough, it's only scary, and the fact that you don't know about the respawning beforehand is supposed to make it scarier.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2012, 16:26 »

Well, AoD is harder with the respawns, but not as bad as people think.

 --In AoD, you get whatever difficulty monsters you would normally fight for that difficulty, and now they respawn instead.
 --In N!, the 'depth' of available monsters is increased, so you get really hard monsters and the respawn.

So in reality, this challenge is a good 'practice' for that style of playing (corpse disposal when necessary), without the full challenge of mobs that are harder and respawning while you learn.

Quote
I'd actually like to redesign the "extra monsters" part of Angel of Darkness so that it's not a matter of enemies respawning but, rather, enemies simply spawning out of your vision, probably close by for added danger/convenience. Whether or not this results from simply being in the level, or enough time not attacking, or whatever, I'm not sure, but I think it's a little more in line with the darkness aspect of things. Plus it's a lot easier for the game to indicate if something shows up.

The only issue with this is you would have to disable exp for all spawned monsters, to prevent farming of low levels, but as you said, it could use a little thought to tweak it around :).
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2012, 16:46 »

Exp is already disabled for all spawned and revived monsters.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2012, 04:37 »

<stuff about the purpose of AoD>
Okay. Point got. On the other side, that Angel of Confidence is pretty much the same shit as normal doom rl exept you start with a few levels less. Let's remove it or enchance with, I dont know, invincible bruiser brothers chasing you from the E2M1 til Dis for you sneaking past Phobos Anomaly? So it will probably become a little different.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2012, 02:37 »

invincible bruiser brothers chasing you from the E2M1 til Dis

This sounds less like a challenge mode and more like a mod waiting to happen.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2012, 01:20 »

The thing about monsters respawning is that it breaks special levels. In Hell's Arena, at least, I could never destroy even the first wave because the monsters kept coming back.

That probably confirms it as a bug: it'd be a nice enough of an official feature, yes, but it should be possible to complete levels that require clearing up everything.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2012, 03:10 »

It's not a bug...

However I don't disagree with what he is saying about needing to clear Special levels. You shouldn't have to be a N! god with corpse disposal skills to be able to complete Hell's Arena. Perhaps provisions to exclude special levels from the AoDark respawning?
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2012, 03:20 »

Hmm.. I think that it's good that you can try corpse disposal in AoD before you dare trying N!. On the other hand, clearing the arena is a guaranteed way to get the early rocket launcher which is the simplest way to dispose corpses...
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2012, 03:50 »

True, practice is good, but to clear it, I don't think you should be required to know it to clear the Arena on AoD.

Anyway, I'm going to stop posting because eventually...I'll say something stupid...
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2012, 14:45 »

The thing about monsters respawning is that it breaks special levels. In Hell's Arena, at least, I could never destroy even the first wave because the monsters kept coming back.

That probably confirms it as a bug: it'd be a nice enough of an official feature, yes, but it should be possible to complete levels that require clearing up everything.

You're joking, right? It's very possible to clean up Hell's Arena. There's even a badge to beat Hell's Arena on N!, and many people have obtained it. Use corpse stacking and caco projectiles to clear it.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2012, 15:04 »

You're joking, right? It's very possible to clean up Hell's Arena. There's even a badge to beat Hell's Arena on N!, and many people have obtained it. Use corpse stacking and caco projectiles to clear it.

I was talking about the AoD respawn, not the N! one. On AoD it's much faster, sometimes even instantaneous, and even if I ever briefly managed to kill them all, the game doesn't count it like that. I've finished Hell's Arena on N!, myself, and know that it can work just fine: it just doesn't on AoD.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2012, 15:56 »

You're joking, right? It's very possible to clean up Hell's Arena. There's even a badge to beat Hell's Arena on N!, and many people have obtained it. Use corpse stacking and caco projectiles to clear it.

Also, I know it's a challenge mode, but if you're not playing N!, you shouldn't be forced to employ advanced tactics. What's the point of having lower difficulties if AoD just becomes AoN!

Maybe that's what we should do, just call it AoN! and tell people to never play it until they are uber-leet at advanced corpse-stacking and clearing tactics...

EDIT: Yes I know I said I wouldn't post...go figure...
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2012, 17:01 »

Obviously we need to remove corpse-stacking.

It's true that AoD is kind of AoN!, but without those base traits in place, there's no Nightmare Squared mode (N! AoD), and masochists or God Hands (or is there a difference?) will have one less super-hard option in the game.

In all seriousness, at this point I'd kind of like to hear a dev's thoughts on the matter.

Also, I know it's a challenge mode, but if you're not playing N!, you shouldn't be forced to employ advanced tactics.

Emphasis mine. Why not?
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2012, 23:08 »

I was talking about the AoD respawn, not the N! one. On AoD it's much faster, sometimes even instantaneous, and even if I ever briefly managed to kill them all, the game doesn't count it like that. I've finished Hell's Arena on N!, myself, and know that it can work just fine: it just doesn't on AoD.

Ah, sorry. I've played both N! and AoD, but not extensively. I didn't know they had different spawn rates.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2012, 01:46 »

@ Ander Hammer

I admit my opinion may be a little slanted as to the communities view as a whole, however eh, still my opinion. (Also, did I not say that I would say something stupid, right, right! :P)

But anyway, the reason (in my opinion) N! exists is to create a system similar to the original Doom, where monsters respawned. The purpose of the challenge modes is to add specific forms of challenge, e.g. you're only allowed to use pistols. (AoMr)

If I decide one merry day to play a challenge called Angel of Darkness, I do not believe that I should be subject to N! standards if I wish to play on HNTR, HMP or UV. Although I admit that the respawning is just part of the challenge, there are other parts that must be considered. For example, it is not compulsory to clear levels in a standard game of AoD. It is however in Hell's Arena. The player must then employ N! style tactics to corpse-stack, etc etc. If he/she has never played N!, he/she is going to have more trouble than what Hell's Arena should be, if not being played on N!.

Now don't get me wrong at all, I'm not knocking those who can commit to those tactics, however it's my personal belief that AoD should not be as harshly subject to the conditions imposed on N! players (respawning) on levels where you are required to employ the tactics. If you're just on a level, trying to clear it, then the respawning challenge is something which is more of the "darkness" motif, not knowing where the next bad guy is going to pop out from. However in an arena setting, the challenge is not parallel to the challenge mode in question.

I also further admit that "employ advanced tactics" isn't the right contextual saying, I hope the actual meaning of my (properly used) words is evident in the above paragraph. (Perhaps, "if you are not playing N!, you shouldn't have to employ N! tactics." is a better way to put it)

I also note that this is not a personal/group/any form of attack against anyone, but someone asked me a question, and I am doing my earnest to explain my point of view. Apologies if anyone takes/took offence.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2012, 02:40 »

You know you can flee from the arena? There's nothing forcing you to finish every special level.

Besides, I have finished AoD long time ago and I'm still struggling with just UV. AoD is nowhere near N! difficulty (that is, unless you are playing AoD on N!...
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2012, 03:05 »

You know you can flee from the arena? There's nothing forcing you to finish every special level.

Of course, but it should be possible to win it, at least in theory.

Quote
Besides, I have finished AoD long time ago and I'm still struggling with just UV. AoD is nowhere near N! difficulty (that is, unless you are playing AoD on N!...

It's not. AoD, even with monsters respawning, is nowhere close to N! in terms of difficulty. Indeed, respawning in itself is not a problem: does it not merely add to the tension and atmosphere when monsters constantly emerge from the shadows, even when you felt briefly safe? If the respawn rate was slower, and didn't happen to any corpse you were looking at, and it was possible to clear Hell's Arena without employing advanced N! tactics, I'd have no problem with it.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2012, 20:50 »

it can be done without corpse stacking, it just takes alot of shells as you need to keep rekilling the same monsters.
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v.997 [16/5/2/0/0]

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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2012, 09:24 »

it can be done without corpse stacking, it just takes alot of shells as you need to keep rekilling the same monsters.
I don't know about that, because the chance of something respawning increases with the amount of time spent on the level.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2012, 21:54 »

You say hard, but remember about double EXP rates.I played AoD a bit on N! and getting lvl6(and Cateye) on Arena(yeah, on HA that spawned on lvl3) is so fun.Actually it makes it even a bit easier in some cases than standard games.
Though i agree, that completing HA with respawing is quite frustrating, unless you know some tricks.
And doing it without destroying corpses requires some serious luck.
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Re: [0.9.9.6G Windows] Multiple AoD bugs
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2012, 23:44 »

The out-of-sight vision problem and stair sense problem in Angel of Darkness have now been fixed in the repository.  There is nothing else here I would consider a bug, but feel free to continue the discussion.
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