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Author Topic: Unused master traits! What should we do to give them more love?  (Read 7955 times)

spacedust

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I reckon there are some master traits that get very little love from our community. For example, I haven't seen any mortems that have the scout master Running Man (MRM) and marine master Survivalist (MSv). I think Entrenchment doesn't get any love too? Anyway, let's talk about master traits that feel underpowered and what can be done to make them more pickable.

I think MRM's bonuses are not too bad: running is a great effect, and this doubles the run time plus negates all the negative effects of running. The pre-reqs are pretty nice too: 2 Fin gives you access to WK, and Dodgemaster is always useful. Maybe it just doesn't sound not sexy enough. Running Man sounds like training for a half marathon? Possibly all that is needed is a rename.

MSv: The ultimate passive defence build - every pre req is geared to boost your HP or lessen loss of life. It does seem great on paper for ensuring survival. But lacking teeth isn't really an option in Doom RL - the best way to stay alive is to neutralise the enemy. I'd be interested to know the reasoning behind this trait, and especially why large medpacks only heal you to a max of 150%.

MEn: Maybe chainfiring players don't want to get shot and hide behind corners mostly, and the resistances don't matter that much? I mean, every tome that I've read about chainfiring says to hide in a nook or a corner and fire away, instead of walking into a crowd. How about something like Triggerhappy Plus, where you fire 2 extra free shots for every rapid fire weapon?
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AlterAsc

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MRM Blocked Traits    Tough as Nails, Son of a Bitch, Dualgunner
That's what i see as MRM problem.I can't use rapid-fire, without second pistol it's no fun to use pistols(unless Sharpshooter ofc), if i go Ber, than i don't run.
Now what weapon am i supposed to use?Shotgun?They don't suffer accuracy penalty anyway.
I used MEn several times and it's quite fun.With proper armor you just don't care about all these cover strategies, you shoot like mad and kill them and shrug off all these rockets, arch-vile blasts and so on.With Ber it becomes 90% resistance making you laugh on everything.
Can't say much about MSv, used it only on AoPc N! no HR attempts, was quite good.Not going to take it in normal games.
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Ashannar

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The reason these traits are underwhelming is that damage is easily mitigated by skill and patience. Yet only traits (and lucky drops) allow the player to do a lot of damage to enemies in a short amount of time.

This is particularly a problem because you can just spend a few traits and get int 2, which is an order of magnitude better at preventing damage than any master trait.

Running man seems more like an advanced trait than a master, and perhaps MSv should get some kind of small across-the-board damage increase to make it more attractive. Because it requires so much more investment than any other master trait, it actually isn't viable to get both SoB and MSv before you beat a normal game. Maybe consider easing up on the prereqs a bit. 7 is a little steep.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 03:41 by Ashannar »
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ih8regin

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IMHO MRM should block Brute and Reloader instead of DG and SoB. Why - brutes are strong and can't run as fast as needed. Reloader - we don't have time to reload, we RUN! On the contrary, a running Dualgunner is quite a character.
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Pricklyman

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IMHO MRM should block Brute and Reloader instead of DG and SoB. Why - brutes are strong and can't run as fast as needed. Reloader - we don't have time to reload, we RUN! On the contrary, a running Dualgunner is quite a character.

Equilibrium anyone? Or The Matrix? I know these are movies, but these are movies based around badasses...

Also, Doomguy - in Doom he's running at 8 gajillion whatevers a minute - and still fires with precision. (I'd hunt up the thread discussing his running speed...but meh...)
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Klear

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Equilibrium anyone?

For that you need Gun Kata, preferably with GCB. Damn, I still want to have a cheat mod that will give you this trait and two GCBs at the start of the game =(

Edit: For Running man, you need a tough as nails badass Schwarzenegger-type character.
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Pricklyman

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For that you need Gun Kata, preferably with GCB. Damn, I still want to have a cheat mod that will give you this trait and two GCBs at the start of the game =(

Keep praying mate...keep praying...  :P
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Game Hunter

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Damn, I still want to have a cheat mod that will give you this trait and two GCBs at the start of the game =(
Code: [Select]
OnEnter = function()
    player.flags[BF_DUALGUN] = true
    player.flags[BF_GUNKATA] = true
    player.pistolbonus = 5
    player.eq.weapon = item.new("uberetta")
    player.eq.prepared = item.new("uberetta")
end
Just plug that into a map and you should be all set. I added SoG(5) for convenience. (You might want to give yourself some ammo though.)

Some of the masters aren't used as much because they require a strategy or a build that isn't considered as much. Survivalist is all about the defense, so you're likely sticking to shotguns and explosive weapons while staying alive: it's actually quite nice for a beginner, so long as they know what weapon types to use with it. Entrenchment is special in that you benefit from it while being in the line of fire, which doesn't happen all that much, but you can combine it with some armor and you end up mostly invincible for a good long time: bulk-modding your weapon is a must since you can't afford a reload.

Running Man is the only one that definitely needs a revamp, because I don't think anyone ever takes it. It could be as simple as removing the SoB restriction: having the opportunity to fire plasma rifles reliably while in the running state would alone be a really cool ability. On the other hand, we're probably going to remove it altogether in favor of a more literal run-and-gun trait.
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raekuul

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I love passive defense, so Survivalist is perfect for me, but I don't post mortems these days anyway because of how much... exploration... I'm doing.
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IronBeer

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Survivalist rules in Angel of Humanity, Angel of Purity, Angel of Masochism, and potentially Angel of Impatience.

It's particularly good in AoHu because you can conceivably start the game with 7 points of armor (P-mod Red Armor and TaN 1), and keeping your armor intact will compensate for your low maxHP. In fact, with Bad(2) and MSv your effective maxHP is 36, which represents 72% of a normal maximum. Weak, but not terribly so, and you'll have a lot of armor between you and incoming attacks.

Survivalist is good in these cases because it really helps prevent loss of hitpoints when hit. And holding onto your HP is key to surviving the limited-health challenges; unless you're Tormuse or 2DeviationsOut, you're probably going to get hit more than a little.

I'll agree that getting good drops is important though. A suitably awesome exotic/unique weapon goes a long way (I particularly love the Plasma Shotgun), and the most foolproof way to clinch AoHu is to get hold of a nuke. Even when wearing a veritable fortress of armor, the Mastermind can blow right through it and your HP total.
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skarczew

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The real problem that I see behind those unused traits is that the experience comes only from killing monsters (with an exception of some challenges).
You just cannot make a damage absorber alone, because you need the skills that help you kill the monsters in order to get the mentioned damage absorber traits.

It is a thing that many "kill for experience" games had problems with.
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HenWen

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First, a bit of analysis on the traits as they exist now:

MRM:  This requires Finesse, which is the best non-specialized damage-increasing trait in the game.  Compare reloader to finesse.  Reloader offers a 20% decrease in reload time compared to finesse at 15%.  No one complains about the lack of offensive power in shotgun masteries.  Finesse gives you 75% of the bonus but is usable across all weapons, and after you have invested two points, the third point becomes pure awesome with a 45% decrease in firing speed for all weapons.  Second, having points invested in finesse means you can usually get whizkid right around the time you do hell's armory, which will give you easy access to assemblies that WILL increase your damage. 

As far as MRM itself, I have to test this out, but the thing is it will allow you to run in circles around slower enemies.  Hellrunner and dodgemaster help you run *away* from an enemy, but a) the accuracy penalty makes non-shotguns too slow to fire and b) weapons generally fire slowly enough that, even if you hit the enemy, you will generally get hit in retaliation.  But if you are running with MRM and fire a fast weapon, it seems likely that you can fire and start moving again before your enemy retaliates, and once you start moving again you are still running.  Theoretically this should allow much better active defense than either finesse or hellrunner. 

Also, while it blocks SoB, it does NOT block EE.  EE is a significant damage increase for chainfire weapons - I dare say much more important for enemies on the edge of vision.  There is no reason you have to beeline for your master trait - taking 1 or 2 levels of another helpful trait can really increase your gameplan.  EE also allows you to focus on mods/assemblies that add damage instead of accuracy.  MAc suffers in the damage department unless you get a lucky S mod or laser rifle.  EE builds can go for e.g. burst cannon assembly.

I personally would like it if the master trait itself got a SLIGHT buff, but I don't have any ideas that would add a unique mechanic and not simply copy another existing trait.

Msv - briefly, it does not block SoG and EE.  5 levels of SoG turns any character with a decent pistol into a juggernaut of destruction.  The only limit is reload time, and 10mm chains can help.  You can go for this trait and put everything else into SoG.  I think it would be fair if you took 0 damage 60-70% of the time.  In terms of late game enemies, this master trait really only effects arachnotrons, and even with this trait and 70% chance not to take damage, a group of arachs can chip away at you pretty quickly.  And as discussed with runningman, EE can boost damage significantly.

My problem with this trait is that it adds little survival against the toughest enemies.  Compare it to e.g. berserker, entrenchment, MMB.  I would rather have a passive 10-20% damage decrease against all damage than anything else.  Another interesting option would be to reduce the damage taken by armor.  Or to have large health packs heal all the way up to 150% health even if the character is at 1% health to begin with.  Of course, I think this passive damage decrease in addition to the 70% chance not to take damage would be too powerful.  As it stands, the weak enemies that this trait will work against are almost no threat in the late game anyway, and it offers no help against the toughest enemies that laugh at your 5 points in tough as nails.  What I want to see with this mastery is something to increase defense / efficiency against the nastiest enemies. 

I think it would see more play if it added a bit of extra damage, but I think that would detract from the unique character of the trait.

MEn - interesting trait with a balance of defense and offense.  I think it takes a bit more planning to use it properly than most other masteries.  If your armor absorbs 0% damage of the relevant damage type, then you are not using it properly. 

The thing is to abuse the % damage reduction by stacking it with other high % damage reduction.  Fireproof armor + MEn = 75% reduced fire damage.  Cerebrus armor + MEn = 100% reduced fire damage.  Ballistic armor = 60% reduced melee damage. 
 
Also, the trait does NOT block eagle eye.  You can get a lot more efficiency out of your chain fire weapons with a point here.  With regard to skarczew's comment - a MEn character with a point or two in eagle eye is going to do more damage than an ammochain character. 

One minor buff would be to add a little more % damage increase or damage reduction after say 2 rounds of chain firing.  So by your third round you are really dug in and get e.g. an extra 5 or 10% damage reduction or an extra 1 or 2 flat damage reduction. 
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Cotonou

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Eh, honestly I think the system is just married too tightly to the three-locks-per-master pattern.  Sure, some masters need to have three locks to prevent them from being overpowered, but who are we kidding when we have Ammochain lock SoG?

I'm personally of the opinion that the most powerful builds avoid masters entirely... master traits tend to be cute little perks while the real power of a character comes from the basic traits and in a few cases from the advanced traits.  Is this what we want?  Dunno.  I would like to see the General Masters category rejiggered to have no trait locks, but only slight bonuses -- perhaps enhancements on the starting class perks.   
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Zalminen

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I quite like the idea of removing the blocked traits for the General masters (and rebalancing them a bit) as that would make them truly general.
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spacedust

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Thirded! That is a great idea, it makes class masters truly universal to that class.
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