DRL > Discussion
Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er
Demetrious:
--- Quote from: Ander Hammer on March 31, 2012, 15:02 ---you might come off as a little less hostile if you reined in some of the metaphor.
--- End quote ---
I laud them as "ninjas" who's exploits are spoken of in tones of awe and I'm coming across as hostile? I honestly apologize. I never want people to read hostility in my tone unless I explicitly intend it.
--- Quote from: 2DeviationsOut ---If you're complaining about having to learn a new set of commands to play a game, and you can't be bothered to script your own custom commands, then you probably should go back to Call of Duty.
--- End quote ---
2DeviationsOUt, I wish to explicitly express great hostility to you. I'm a lifelong Roguelike player, Multi-User-Dungeon player and simulation gamer. I play IL-2 as often as I'm able, and IL-2 has dozens of critical controls completely unscripted - no default keys, you've got to set them up yourself, and best be hoping you've set keys for opening your canopy, raising your seat, engaging/disengaging wheel chocks and manually cranking up your landing gear if you ever want to look sideways at an F-3F Wildcat. It's even more fun with Complex Engine Management; enjoy setting up keys for mixture control, prop pitch and radiator flaps. Let's not forget bombsight controls; increase/decrease speed, altitude, target altitude, adjust bombsight angle, toggle auto mode. Like most adults with a paying job I can't "study" a game so obsessively that even compensating for UI quirks becomes flawless, unconscious muscle reflex - but you might say I've scripted a few commands.
And unlike a Roguelike, you're using all these keys in extremely "fast and furious" combat; e.g. "closing with a Bf-109 in a head-on merge at 700 combined MPH" fast, making snap judgements on speed, angles, energy, potential energy and positioning as you think ten steps ahead in about a second and a half.
So try to appreciate just how much it pisses me off to have you telling me to "go back to Call of Duty." Because I complained about "having to learn a new set of commands." I've got a $40 copy of Shaw's Fighter Combat sitting on my desk - that's a textbook still used to teach actual fighter pilots how to fly. I learned how to play submarine simulators by reading books written by WWII submarine commanders. "Learn a new set of commands?" Chum, I do homework for my games.
So when I, of all people, say a particular user interface can be a pain in the ass, you may consider that a statement.
--- Quote from: 2DeviationsOut ---I feel that a lot of the complaints about randomness/interface are actually barely disguised complaints about difficulty.
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Despite some very succinct explanations meant to counter that exact accusation:
--- Quote from: Demetrious ---Yes, we must distinguish between conscious gameplay decisions and unintentional actions input into the program because of human/machine interface issues.
--- End quote ---
However, this isn't fair. I'm new here, after all; quite likely this is a recurring thread oft filled with the bitter tears of newbies whom did not fathom that the "Living Hell" part of Doom RL was not entirely metaphorical. So even though nobody in this thread is whining about difficulty levels, you just jumped the gun and spoke directly to the typical root of most UI complaints. I get that.
But please understand that not everyone raising these concerns are "new/casuals" who need to "learn to play," and so glibly blowing them off as such while you talk down to them might really, really, really rustle their jimmies.
I thank you for your consideration.
Murkglow:
Ummm you wonder why you come off as "hostile" (or at the least unsympathetic) when you say stuff like this?
--- Quote from: Demetrious on March 31, 2012, 14:55 ---I'm an adult, you know? I've got a job, and responsibilities, and the paperwork and everything. I have enough time to play games but not enough time to make a fucking study of them. Which is exactly why I don't play Nethack anymore; games I used to play when I was a basement-dwelling CHUD of the highest order.
You diamond-badge earning Roguelike ninas; I respect and fear your skills. We surface-dwellers may speak glibly, but at night we tell of your exploits in awed whispers. But at the moment, the price of following your steps is too high.
--- End quote ---
Not only does the "awe" and "ninja" stuff come off as sarcastic and perhaps mocking but just prior to that you basically say that people who do actually take the time to think about what they are doing and not spam the "r" key are "basement-dwelling CHUD"s with no jobs, responsibilities, and the like. Not everyone who plays the game and handles the situations that are being brought up here lack a real life nor does not spamming the "r" key (or not walking into lava) equal making a study of the game. Simple common sense and a smidge of restraint handle that just fine.
This kind of stuff, plus comments (from other posters) about "Forget Strategy. This is about fun" and "Let the game take care of the safety" are the reason your position comes off as complaining and likely what provoked the "Go back to Call of Duty" response.
Matt_S:
--- Quote from: 2DeviationsOut on March 31, 2012, 21:51 ---I feel that a lot of the complaints about randomness/interface are actually barely disguised complaints about difficulty.
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I'm just going to come out and say this: I don't think you know what you're talking about. I know now that I'm not a good player, though I used to think otherwise. Sometimes walk into lava because my fingers are misplaced, and sometimes I accidentally hit i+u and waste an item, and sometimes I don't notice that an enemy has appeared and I take another step or reload another shell, and in the past I used to hit f without realizing I didn't have any ammo and I'd walk instead of aim. But that's not why I'm a bad player. I could name a ton of reasons, among them the fact that I can hardly play anything but overpowered melee builds nowadays, and that I'm still awkward with corner shooting, and that I don't handle being surrounded well at all, and that I don't know how to manage my inventory when I do have to carry a lot of ammo, and that I'm not very good at using any chainfire weapons. Sparing me those input accidents won't make me a good player, but it'll make things a lot less frustrating.
LuckyDee:
--- Quote from: Demetrious on March 31, 2012, 23:59 ---So when I, of all people, say a particular user interface can be a pain in the ass, you may consider that a statement.
--- End quote ---
I disagree with 2Deviations as well, in that this is not a difficulty issue. I do, however, find it hard to conceal my amazement at the 'interface issues'. As I mentioned to Napsterbater, yes this game is Doom and yes this game is not. In fact, in a lot of respects it comes really close to chess. The run command issues (and comparable) put aside, the faster you play, the more likely it will be that you'll make mistakes - you'll press the wrong key, press 2 at the same time, etc. I got slaughtered by 2 Revenants yesterday when I miscounted my ammo and stepped out from cover thinking I was aiming for a cornershoot.
The only reason I died was because I was going too fast: no one was urging me on, there was no clock ticking away, and dinner wasn't getting cold. I wasn't paying enough attention and pressed the wrong keys - and paid for it.
Back to chess: you can (and will) guess at what your opponent's next move(s) are going to be, and plan a few of your own ahead accordingly. If you then execute these planned moves without bothering to check if your guess at the countermoves was more or less correct, you, generally speaking, are a great big nincumpoop. And without wanting to be offensive, the remark that started this discussion ('I pressed 'r' 5 times in a row without thinking') falls smack dead in the middle of this category.
So, in summary:
* Actual design flaws in the game should be rectified. So far, I've seen none discussed in this thread.
* Interface errors are more or less non-existent - I can point out a few, be not enough to start complaining about them. I agree that either a numpad or custom bindings are vital, but the result will always be Press This Key - Watch That Happen. All you need to do is make sure you know what the keys do, and press them in the right order.
* If you use the 'run' function instead of thinking for yourself - which in my perception makes no difference in the time it takes, unless you want to make coffee while Doomguy does the running - don't complain if it doesn't think like you do. In my opinion, it shouldn't think at all, and drop you straight into a pool of lava if it happens to be in the way.
* If you want to play fast, don't complain if you're fingers are faster than your eyes. The game wasn't built for speed, it was built for strategy. Live fast, die young.
All this aside, if you feel changes to the game should be made - as Matt demonstrated - go ahead; as long as I don't have to pay the price for having a different style of play than someone else, you won't hear me moaning about any 'improvements'. And additionally: great discussion. Lots of input from lots of people, nice to see how everyone experience the game.
Ashannar:
I think 2DeviationsOut is right on the money.
The one thing I'd disagree with him on is that he thinks NetHack is less forgiving than DoomRL. I get that I'm kind of new to this game, and that very may well be why I think this way, but.. I don't know. He brought up the E-word. That mitigates 90%+ damage in that game, effortlessly. I sure wish I had E in this game. I will surely concede that something like an illiterate atheist NetHack ascension is much harder than most DoomRL badges, but not all or even many by a longshot.
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