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Author Topic: Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er  (Read 20862 times)

Zecks

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Re: Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2012, 15:27 »

I'm already a 4-diamond ninja, yet my knowledge of the exact mechanics and strategy are far from optimal. I'm also a relatively fast player.
Yeah, there are some annoyances (shift+r IS pretty much useless), but most of these complaints and the arguments for them are too typical and exaggerated to be taken seriously.

Also the G-version most certainly doesn't buffer anything. In fact the buffering problems are even worse IMO.
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Matt_S

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Re: Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2012, 15:29 »

Each move is potentially important in DoomRL. In most roguelikes, your moves don't matter until enemies are visible. In DoomRL, the very next move you make could be a dodge. Maximizing this potential is one of the hallmarks of a veteran player.

I'm not opposed to an auto-explore function or improved run command by any means. But I am pointing out that it is disingenuous to say that 'the interesting choice has already been made' when there are still several more interesting choices to be made to get there.

Perhaps, but my other point still remains that I can use a mouse click in the graphical version and let the game safely walk for me.  Do you think that should be removed?  If not, why shouldn't the same feature be given as an option for standard keyboard motion?  Edit: rather, let me take care of the walking and let the game take care of the safety.

The interface has nothing to do with it. It sounds like you have this subconscious idea that 'the faster I tap r, the faster I'll be able to deal with these enemies.' But it doesn't work like that. You need to develop a healthy respect for reloading taking a decent chunk of time in this game.

I'm all for improving the interface, but it sounds to me like you're talking about nerfing 1/3 of the tactical consideration in this game. There is not a way to 'fix' this without making reloading overpowered. And please don't even think about a confirmation for reloading while enemies are in sight. ;)

I think you're missing what he's saying.  It's not about reloading taking too much (game) time, it's about "oops, I didn't realize that a Baron walked into my sight and I accidentally reloaded another shell into my shotgun and got a face full of acid".  Telling the player "An enemy walked into your sight while you were busy doing tedious stuff!" doesn't remove any of the tactics about when to reload or what to do when the player faces an enemy without a fully loaded weapon.  Personally, I don't think R should be interrupted by enemies; I think it should take less time to reload a full set of shells but still be uninterruptable.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 15:35 by Matt_S »
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Ashannar

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Re: Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2012, 15:40 »

Yeah, I always thought it'd be a good idea for full reload to give you a time discount over reloading individually. I could go for either idea over what we have now.
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Cotonou

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Re: Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2012, 16:12 »

For all you people saying that shift-R is useless, consider:  the Invulnerability Globe grants 50 *actions* worth of invuln.  You can either tap 'r' 5 times and spend 10% of your invulnerability time... or you can shift-R and reload the whole thing in 2%.

Just sayin'.
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Matt_S

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Re: Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2012, 16:17 »

For all you people saying that shift-R is useless, consider:  the Invulnerability Globe grants 50 *actions* worth of invuln.  You can either tap 'r' 5 times and spend 10% of your invulnerability time... or you can shift-R and reload the whole thing in 2%.

Just sayin'.
That's kind of esoteric, but you do have a point.
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Ashannar

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Re: Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2012, 16:23 »

I didn't know that. Cool.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2012, 16:24 »

I sometimes suffer from such mistakes, because i think like "Ahh, respawns, respawns, i need to be faster" and instead of playing efficiently i tap the keys like mad.Or i just press move key one more time and die, when i'm not using run.And i'm not using it because it's safer to move diagonally or with zig-zags.
I believe that problem is not in the game, it's in TS's playstyle.Also about danger message - basically 95% of gametime you are in danger, and let's say that one third of that time is when you're in grave danger and you can just die after one wrong turn.Or there were no wrong actions, it's just two mancubi came out simultaneously.
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Zecks

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Re: Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2012, 16:29 »

Speaking of mancubi, if there's one thing everyone agrees on, it's that they are assholes.
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Uranium

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Re: Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2012, 16:30 »

Speaking of mancubi, if there's one thing everyone agrees on, it's that they are assholes.
But are damn good at dancing.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2012, 16:37 »

Depends.It's like they're but there are revenants who have homing attack, but there're arachnotron caves, but viles bother you with respawns, but commandos are even more painful, but barons chew your medpacks and deal acid damage, but...So i'd say they are all balanced to torment you.
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Zecks

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Re: Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2012, 16:40 »

Mancubi are the worst mainly because they make swiss cheese out of your cover if they get even a single shot in.
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Napsterbater

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Re: Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2012, 16:49 »

Depends.It's like they're but there are revenants who have homing attack, but there're arachnotron caves, but viles bother you with respawns, but commandos are even more painful, but barons chew your medpacks and deal acid damage, but...So i'd say they are all balanced to torment you.
Arach caves don't bother me as much as they used to. By the time I get to them, I've got plenty of red/blue armor to deal with the short time I need to get to cover. Then I pull my shotty out, pop a few to rile them up, then switch to non-knockback weapons to finish them off when they get in melee range. If I get in trouble, switch on run and find cover. If I absolutely have to, I'll line them up so the rear Arach shoots through the near one.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 16:51 by Napsterbater »
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AlterAsc

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Re: Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2012, 17:00 »

That's good.
But when i get to lvl6 after 30 minutes of carefully clearing HA and CC+ and spawn in the middle of arachnotron cave i start praying.Or more like cursing.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 17:52 by AlterAsc »
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Ander Hammer

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Re: Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2012, 19:20 »

For all you people saying that shift-R is useless, consider:  the Invulnerability Globe grants 50 *actions* worth of invuln.

Is this still true? I know it was (and might still be), but I thought powerups were switched to a set amount of game time in some recent version.

Speaking of mancubi, if there's one thing everyone agrees on, it's that they are assholes.

Naw, they're cute bags of meat. I love filling them with bullets and then punching them to death.
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Re: Ideas to make DoomRL even faster and furious'er
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2012, 21:51 »

1) About the difficulty, DoomRL is already really easy compared to many other roguelikes. DoomRL won't kill you if you fail to remember that you can engrave "Elbereth" in the floor to repel monsters. DoomRL doesn't require you to memorize the entire table of item weights to identify items. In DoomRL, you won't ever get stuck wielding a cursed butter knife, and the only items that are cursed are either obscenely powerful or the Cybernetic Armor. In DoomRL, death is very rarely random. You got what you deserved for being stupid. If you didn't listen for what's on the other side of the door and you get melted by plasma, it's your fault.

2) About the interface: DoomRL has the best-designed interface of any roguelike I've played. It's simple and elegant, and you can see the entire level on the screen. This is why I don't use the graphical version. If you're complaining about having to learn a new set of commands to play a game, and you can't be bothered to script your own custom commands, then you probably should go back to Call of Duty. Games have different sets of commands. You don't have to be an absolute master to play DoomRL, and nearly everyone can win on ITYTD.

3) On random deaths: They don't happen, except in AoOC, on the start of the game. You need to know what's likely to happen, and to freaking listen. If I hear an enemy on the other side of the door, or near me, I'll back off from the door, and blow it away with a shot or two. Then, I don't have to worry. It's not like ADOM, ffs. You don't have to always open doors diagonally for fear of stone blocks falling on your head. You don't have to carry tons of junk items around to avoid having your weapons blown up by a freaking door. And, you won't ever have to deal with an enemy summoning 12 banshees at the same time, and instakilling you. DoomRL is incredibly forgiving, and it's the least random Roguelike I've played.

To summarize:

I feel that a lot of the complaints about randomness/interface are actually barely disguised complaints about difficulty. In mainstream games, everything is handed to you on a plate. Most of them are of the "Press X not to die" variety, with some going far enough to not actually let you die at all. They are designed so that you can beat the game on your first playthrough. They are more like a movie than a game. With DoomRL, you actually have a hard game. Diamond badges are actually a real accomplishment, and are hailed as such. This is why DoomRL has such staying power and replay value. If you're anything like me, and given that you're reading this you probably are, playing mainstream games will leave an empty, ashen taste in your mouth. It's not like you really did anything worthwhile, because it wasn't a challenge. That adrenaline high that you get when you do something awesome has to be earned. Otherwise, it doesn't mean anything.

I know that I'll catch a lot of flak from the new/casual community for this, but learn to play. This is a game designed to be uncompromisingly brutal, and if you can't handle it, turn down the difficulty. You'll get better eventually, until you can slowly work your way up the challenges, on a bridge built from dead Doomguys. Look at me for an example. I started with dying on HNTR, and I steadily got better. I might be an edge-case, but the potential is there for another DoomRL master.

Personally, I feel that Kornel made an incredible concession in not starting the game's difficulty at UV, and if you're playing on the low difficulties, feel glad that they're there at all. They're there for you to learn.

Kornel: Keep up the good work. And, I want something beyond N! for difficulty. I'm looking forwards to whatever you add to the game.
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