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[ih8regin]

well, don't just forget that a scout has a 10% speed boost, so playing MGK is somewhat easier in the beginning than playing technician for MSs. While it's remediable with a T mod while I likely get at the start as a techie, at least for shooting speed, I need an A mod (on an armor, since no boots prior to Phobos-5 or Phobos-4) to get the requested effect for moving speed, while the scout can just remove the armor and run-run-run.

(Offtop: Had a lot of fun yesterday when I've got me a Necroarmor out of Vaults while playing UV, and triple HR put me at 0.38 per walk - WOW that's what I call fast! Nuclear rifles FTW!)

[Murkglow]

I think you're really stretching there about how big a difference that really makes (especially in context of learning corner/radar shooting which is all you really need to beat Hell's Arena with any class).  And if we're getting specific like that then Technicians being able to quickly use items can allow them to survive Hell's Arena easily too...

[AlterAsc]

But you can startscum with Tech to instantly get yourself a speedloaer.
Also i believe it's not crucial to beat Arena on AoMr.P-mod and ammochain can be useful, but it's not as helping as RL with lots of rockets.

[2DeviationsOut]

Just a note on my builds: When playing pistols, unless going for a SoG-less game, then I'll go straight for Sharpshooter without any sidetracks, and then either go for Int/WK depending on the number/kind of mods I have and the difficulty. I'll typically go for Int before WK in a Sharpshooter build on N!, because I know that I'll get XP fast enough to grab the WK levels before it gets too late in the game.

[punkbohemian]

You want to learn to corner shoot...

Oh, I'm definitely corner shooting, but it doesn't seem to work all the time, especially against shottys (which knock me out of my corner).

Especially if you have intuition 2, there's no reason to get shot, ever...

I don't have Int2, I've been playing with the SoG>SoG>SoG>EE>EE>EE>MSs>Int>Int plan and usually die before I even get MSs.

hole up in the doorway of one of the buildings with the former humans in it and start shooting blindly down the hallway until the screaming stops.

It's possible to still hit things that far outside of your vision range? I know the armory just goes straight down, but I figured everything just automatically missed at a certain point. Also, what do you do about the Shambler?

Have you watched Game Hunter's videos

I started to, but they're kind of long and I just want to play. :P  I'd rather just ask a few specific questions and try to figure it out for myself.

well, don't just forget that a scout has a 10% speed boost, so playing MGK is somewhat easier in the beginning than playing technician for MSs. While it's remediable with a T mod while I likely get at the start as a techie, at least for shooting speed, I need an A mod (on an armor, since no boots prior to Phobos-5 or Phobos-4) to get the requested effect for moving speed, while the scout can just remove the armor and run-run-run.

The thing that turned me off of MGK has to do with the armor of enemies later in the game. MGK and MSs have comparable base damage potentials, but MSs does it in fewer shots, which means less is soaked up by armor. As for running, I'm always hesitant to go to that mode. It only lasts for so long, and you can only do it once per level (or burn a healing item to recharge it).

But you can startscum with Tech to instantly get yourself a speedloaer.

I almost always get the speedloader mods to start. I always save them for something better, though. Since I rarely have to reload in combat, I don't see the value of burning two mods that gives me an ordinary pistol that reloads faster.

Just a note on my builds: When playing pistols, unless going for a SoG-less game, then I'll go straight for Sharpshooter without any sidetracks, and then either go for Int/WK depending on the number/kind of mods I have and the difficulty.

Yeah, that was my plan, but I'm consistently getting ganked before I even get to MSs.

[Klear]

I think dualgun build is easier for new players. You don't have to go for any of the masters if you don't want to. Extra SoG and/or EE, SoB, Finesse can make you a killing machine even without master traits. It's all about shooting incredible ammounts of bullets extremely fast.

In any case - if shotguns knock you out of the corner, you are doing something wrong. Stuff outside your sight range has additional 50% chance to miss, but it's worth shooting the few bullets into the dark if you know there is something there. As for Shambler, kill him as fast as you can, cornershooting if possible, but in any case keep the bullets pouring. That's never done me no harm. And speedloader is definitely worth it in the beginning. It's quite possible to go through the game with just it (or dual).
If you get killed before you can get your master, saving mods isn't probably that improtant.

[punkbohemian]

In the 10 minutes since my last post, I just got killed at level 3 (my lowest level kill ever), mainly from getting pelted by shotguns that were outside of my visual range. Do sarges have a longer visual range than me? I spent the entire time moving in such a way to be in a good corner shot position, and I'm only playing on Normal difficulty, and I get iced when I'm only Level 3.

I think dualgun build is easier for new players. You don't have to go for any of the masters if you don't want to. Extra SoG and/or EE, SoB, Finesse can make you a killing machine even without master traits. It's all about shooting incredible ammounts of bullets extremely fast.

Come to think of it, I think SoB might offset the damage penalty that comes from DG against armored opponents (compared to MSs). However, while you don't have to deal with masters, I would think it takes more traits in the long run. Sure, it only takes 3 traits to get to DG (versus 7 for MSs), but when you add in the SoBs, extra SoG, and Finesse (which you have to do for Whiz Kid) or EEs, you're passing MSs easily.

In any case - if shotguns knock you out of the corner, you are doing something wrong.

Clearly, I am. I've read the guides on it, though. And, I'm doing what the guides say.

And speedloader is definitely worth it in the beginning.

Really, how? I just don't understand. It's only good for combat reloading, of which I do rarely, if at all. Otherwise it's an ordinary pistol.

[skarczew]

I find MSs a bit harder than Dualgunner builds. The second gun simply doubles your damage.
One could say that 3*SoG is better than 2*SoG and DG when it comes to ammo efficiency, but the latter is better for DPS ... and DPS is the thing that you need.

Oh, and instead of typical weak "dev made" :P trait builds you can try my version of glass cannon (it is somewhere in mortems now).
As for Shambler, with a good positioning and decent build you can kill him without getting any damage.

[Klear]

In the 10 minutes since my last post, I just got killed at level 3 (my lowest level kill ever), mainly from getting pelted by shotguns that were outside of my visual range. Do sarges have a longer visual range than me? I spent the entire time moving in such a way to be in a good corner shot position, and I'm only playing on Normal difficulty, and I get iced when I'm only Level 3.

Standard enemies have the same sight range as you, cyberdemon sees farther and melee enemies (lost souls/demons) see less.

In any case, if you encounter a sergeant who shoots you and knocks you back out of sight, do not approach him again. Either shoot him blindly (and let him come to you) or retreat behind cover and he will follow you. If you hide behind a door (diagonally from the door), he will enter the doorway and be in melee range, which means that he won't be able to shoot and will only use a weak melee attack that is additionally prone to miss.

You can also lure formers by giftdropping: eg. drop a medkit in a doorway and stand aside so that the enemy will come into your melee range. Formers and knights/barons (btw, for dealing with barons this is not the best idea) will go to and pick up all medkits, phase devices and a single armour unless they know where you are, so you can use all of the above to lure them to you. Then give them a faceful of bullets/shotgun shells from point blank range.
BTW, you obviously have to wait until a former wanders nearby the lure and comes for it, so in case you don't know, you can wait using the run command and then wait. The waiting will stop when an enemy appears, or after some time.

One more thing - learn to use the pistol's alternate fire, which is aimed shot. Until you get eagle eye, it can be used to get an almost certain hit at long distances, though the shot takes more time so the enemies have longer to retaliate. If you are facing a single former/imp and you already hurt him, you can use it to almost guarantee the kill. Once you have dualgunner, you can use aimed shot to dispatch weak enemies in a single shot at long ranges (and if you are facing single enemies, i can't hurt much to use it in mid-close range as well, just to be sure).

[punkbohemian]

Ok, so now I'm thinking either:

SoG>SoG>DG>EE>EE>Int>Int>WK>WK
for a Tech

or

SoG>SoG>DG>Int>Int>Fin>Fin>Wk>Wk
for a Scout

btw, does the scout's speed bonus apply to all actions or just moving?

I'm thinking the scout might be the stronger option especially if the speed bonus applies to attacks. First, you get Int sooner. Second, I think Fin might be stronger for pistols than EE. Fin2 is 30% more lead in the air, while EE2 is just 17% more accurate at best, less so at close range or if you're aiming.

I wonder which is more valuable with either build, SoG3 or SoB. SoB is basically just SoG, but without the speed bonus (though SoG only applies to pistols), right?

In any event, after this, I'm not sure if I'd be better off going for MGK (HR>HR>DM>GTK), maxing out SoG and maybe getting some SoB (SoG>SoG>SoG) for max damage potential, or maybe even shooting for Badass (TaN>TaN>Bad) for endurance. I'm guessing the SoG approach is stronger since with Int2, I should need to be dodging much, but I don't really know.

[Klear]

I went through my mortem archive and it seems I got marksman silver as a scout with SoG->SoG->DG->SoG->Int->Int->Fin->Fin->
That is a surprise to me, I though I only played marines back then, but whatever =)

Looks like I didn't bother with EE at all and went for high damage output. It could work for you as well, though I warn you that I was a lot less experineced than today, which isn't much.

[skarczew]

@punkbohemian:
You are doing it wrong, a bit.

Here is my build sketch (take in mind, it was thought for UV):

SoG->SoG->DG->SoG->EE->SoB->SoB->HR->HR->DM->Int->SoG->SoG->TH->MCe

You need as many SoG as you can. It is no-brainer: it decreases fire time and increases damage done.
One EE is here, because it is simply needed. While sparing your ammo, it makes enemies die faster as well.
SoB was taken there for even higher damage output. 3*SoG and 2*SoB make enemies move backwards from impact.

2*HR and DM are for cybie and increased movement speed of a Scout.

Int is useful, and already on the way to MCe.
Another 2 points into SoG make you DPS monster.

TH is here because devs think that machine gunners do care about pinpoint accuracy at a great distances. They also think that MCe is a chainfire trait.

MCe is just a cherry on a top. With that your vision will exceed everything (I am not sure about JC, though) and you will be able to nail monsters to the opposite side of the screen.

You can get rid of HR and get MCe, second Int faster.

[AlterAsc]

Or you can just go with SoG-SoG-DG-SoG-EE-SoB-SoB-SoB-smth-smth-smth-SoG-SoG-SoB-SoB.
Used such build on AoMr UV(played Marine, but it doesn't matter).Just plain basic offensive build to kill anything as fast as possible.

[Murkglow]

The thing that turned me off of MGK has to do with the armor of enemies later in the game. MGK and MSs have comparable base damage potentials, but MSs does it in fewer shots, which means less is soaked up by armor.

I can't say I understand this.  Dual Gunner especially early on (but even toward the end likely) does more damage then Sharpshooter, simply by virtue of SoG damage bonus being applied to both shots.  I mean just considering the math a basic pistol is 2d4 (avg 5 max 8) +3 for SOG3 is 16 average with DG vs 11 with MSs.  If the enemy has 1 armor it's 14 vs 10, 2 armor is 12 vs 9, 3 armor is 10 vs 8, 4 armor is 8 vs 7, 5 armor is 6 vs 6 (note that even the Cyberdemon doesn't have 5 armor, most enemies even late game only have 2 natural armor).  Late game you're able to pick up SoG5 which again benefits DG quite a bit.  Of course there are various advantages to MSs, such as using less ammo, better knockback, and such but lacking in damage (late game or not) isn't usually a fault of DG specifically...  Might I ask what caused you to not like DG much?

[Klear]

I'd say a lot of players overestimate enemy armour. I know I did.