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Author Topic: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)  (Read 29509 times)

Perfectblue

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Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2012, 08:34 »

Playing on HMP attempting a pistol build but getting destroyed on Chained Court I normally wouldnt have trouble with it. I Have skills in dual gunner/ son of a gun at that point. With pistols its very difficult to kite monsters around wall corners as you can with a shotgun. Thus, being able to shoot an enemy with a pistol means the enemy can also shoot you. And pistols do not have high enough DPS to face a tough monster head on, as you might be able to with a plasma rifle in a tight spot.

Normally on the Chained Court if I have a rapid fire chaingun build, or shotgun build I would have no difficulty. I must be doing something wrong.

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Creaphis

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Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2012, 11:13 »

Unless you're playing Angel of Marksmanship, what you're doing wrong is not carrying a chaingun and a shotgun or two. Every weapon type has its advantages, and having a "build" doesn't mean you're only allowed to use that one thing.
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shark20061

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Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2012, 11:54 »

And pistols do not have high enough DPS to face a tough monster head on, as you might be able to with a plasma rifle in a tight spot.

What makes you so sure of that?

SoG 2 and Dualgunner gives you 19.4 Average DPS  SoG 3 and Dualgunner gives you 33.0 Average DPS.  Also, 91% point blank accuracy (+4).

The base plasma rifle has an Average DPS of 24, with only 74% point blank accuracy (+2).

SoG 3 is *very* important for a pistol build.  That firing time reduction makes a huge difference.

Thus, being able to shoot an enemy with a pistol means the enemy can also shoot you.

That is also not necessarily true.  If you play in graphics mode and hit the 'f' key to bring up the target selection, move the mouse around your field of view when you're cornershooting.  There are spaces in your vision that enemies can't shoot you from (you'll see the X turn red over those).
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Perfectblue

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Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2012, 18:23 »

Thanks for the insightful response shark20061.

When going for a pistol build, would you recommend waiting to use pistols as your main source of damage until you have at least X amount of points in certain traits? For example, wait until you have at least 1 in dual gunner.
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thelaptop

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Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2012, 18:35 »

At lower difficulty levels, there is no reason to wait for anything to use your pistols.  Ammunition is plenty, and even with SoGx1, your pistols are still pretty useful at killing things.  This is probably a good way to get used to AoMr without having the specific restriction at hand.

I am not so sure about the higher difficulty levels.
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punkbohemian

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Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2012, 19:22 »

Quote
Unless you're playing Angel of Marksmanship, what you're doing wrong is not carrying a chaingun and a shotgun or two.

I thought I mentioned this a few times, but I am doing Angel of Marksmanship.

I've tried both a DG and MSs build, though at that point of the game (Bruiser Brothers), they're both pretty much the same. I also tinkered with an Int (MCe) build, figuring I could take the whole knowledge-is-power approach, but without pistol traits, I was not terribly effective. However, I haven't spent too much time on that build, so I might just need a little more practice.

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shark20061

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Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
« Reply #66 on: April 06, 2012, 21:04 »

Comparing MSs, DG, and MBD:

Assuming no other traits and no mods.
Assuming no enemy armor.
Assuming all shots connect.

DG, Two Pistols, Avg DPS --
SoG 2: 19.7
SoG 3: 33.0
SoG 4: 75.0
SoG 5: 166.7

MSs, Pistol, DPS --
SoG 2: (16.7)
SoG 3: 27.5
SoG 4: 60.0
SoG 5: 130.0

Bullet Dance makes these numbers go insane:

MBD, TH 2, Two Pistols, Avg DPS:
SoG 2: 58.3
SoG 3: 100.0
SoG 4: 225.0
SoG 5: 500.0

and TH 1 actually provides BETTER benefits (until SoG 5) due to a bug:

MBD, TH 1, Two Pistols, Avg DPS:
SoG 2: 77.8
SoG 3: 133.3
SoG 4: 300.0
SoG 5: 400.0

Edit: Hehehe, get this: I didn't count in the extra 2 damage from SoB (to get TH), so the actual values will actually be HIGHER than that!! See below!

MBD, TH 2, Two Pistols, Avg DPS (with SoB 2 bonus) --
SoG 2: 75.0
SoG 3: 125.0
SoG 4: 275.0
SoG 5: 600.0

MBD, TH 1, Two Pistols, Avg DPS (with SoB 2 bonus) --
SoG 2: 100.0
SoG 3: 166.7
SoG 4: 366.7
SoG 5: 480.0
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 00:45 by shark20061 »
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AlterAsc

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Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
« Reply #67 on: April 06, 2012, 22:48 »

Well, since without EE you do miss a lot, and you need to reload a lot, MBD is not as cool as it seems from this numbers.
Also since basically any shot causes knockback, you'll miss even more due to it.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 22:52 by AlterAsc »
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ih8regin

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Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
« Reply #68 on: April 06, 2012, 23:11 »

and, these numbers are only correct for nanomachic pistols, since you'll have to reload, and spend a lot of time for either build, but with MSs and DG you have to reload once per 6 shots (normal pistols expected), with MBD/TH1 once per three shots, and with MBD/TH2 once per two shots.

Hey by the way, is Aimed Shot affected by MBD? I'll be glad if it is - 0.2s for 6 +3 targeted bullets (for a total of +7) is a serious set of firepower.
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shark20061

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Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2012, 00:55 »

Aimed Shot doesn't stack with Bullet Dance, you'll only fire 2 shots (one from each gun).

Alright, alright, so I missed the reloading time, which is kinda a big thing.

I'll even throw the numbers in so you can double check them, how's that?

SoGAvg Dmg.ShotsSpeedReloadTotal Dmg.Total TimeDPS
DG
27124.322.4846.7212.5
38122.882.4965.2818.2
49121.442.41083.8428.1
510120.62.4120340.0
MSs
21063.61.2604.812.5
31162.41.2663.618.3
41261.21.2722.430.0
51360.61.2781.843.3
MBD, TH1
29121.082.41083.4831.0
310120.722.41203.1238.5
411120.362.41322.7647.8
512120.32.41442.753.3
MBD, TH2
29121.442.41083.8428.1
310120.962.41203.3635.7
411120.482.41322.8845.8
512120.22.41442.655.4
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Pricklyman

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Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2012, 04:12 »

Shark - the man with too much time on his hands...

:D
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Uitë

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Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
« Reply #71 on: April 07, 2012, 05:39 »

Of course, if you're going pistols, you'll want to have at least a speedloader or a combat pistol if you can get it, and MSs also allows the use of a 10mm ammochain. Both would change the numbers significantly.
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shark20061

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Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
« Reply #72 on: April 07, 2012, 09:18 »

Of course, if you're going pistols, you'll want to have at least a speedloader or a combat pistol if you can get it, and MSs also allows the use of a 10mm ammochain. Both would change the numbers significantly.

Significantly is right.

MSs with 10mm Ammo Chain
SoGAvg Dmg.ShotsSpeedReloadTotal Dmg.Total TimeDPS
21063.60.24603.8415.6
31162.40.24662.6425.0
41261.20.24721.4450.0
51360.60.24780.8492.9

MBD, TH1, Two Speedloader Pistols
SoGAvg Dmg.ShotsSpeedReloadTotal Dmg.Total TimeDPS
29121.081.21082.2847.4
310120.721.21201.9262.5
411120.361.21321.5684.6
512120.31.21441.596.0

MBD, TH2, Two Speedloader Pistols
SoGAvg Dmg.ShotsSpeedReloadTotal Dmg.Total TimeDPS
29121.441.21082.6440.9
310120.961.21202.1655.6
411120.481.21321.6878.6
512120.21.21441.4102.9

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skarczew

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Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
« Reply #73 on: April 07, 2012, 15:46 »

I thought I mentioned this a few times, but I am doing Angel of Marksmanship.

I've tried both a DG and MSs build, though at that point of the game (Bruiser Brothers), they're both pretty much the same. I also tinkered with an Int (MCe) build, figuring I could take the whole knowledge-is-power approach, but without pistol traits, I was not terribly effective. However, I haven't spent too much time on that build, so I might just need a little more practice.
\you are wrong.
They are not the same.

And MCe is a great addition to DG, thats true.
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skarczew

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Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
« Reply #74 on: April 07, 2012, 15:51 »

\you are wrong.
They are not the same.

And MCe is a great addition to DG, thats true.

@shark:
Your stats are nice, but do not take few things into account:
- accuracy;
- defense;
- ammo efficiency (damage / ammo); higher ammo usage (MBD) does not really go well with later levels; also you can't always tank while reloading;
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