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[AlterAsc]

MCe is one of possible ways to develop masterless high-offence(SoB,SoG,EE) build into something.Though personally i would rather take Tan/Iro instead.

[shark20061]

@shark:
Your stats are nice, but do not take few things into account:
- accuracy;

I mentioned that already, that would be one huge variable, affects all cases equally, and only by a little, so that's really a non issue.

- defense;

Again, mentioned, but I did put some tables together anyway and there really isn't a major effect.

- ammo efficiency (damage / ammo); higher ammo usage (MBD) does not really go well with later levels; also you can't always tank while reloading;

...what?  The same weapon is in every table (except for the speedloaders, but they use the same base weapon).  How does this even matter?  These stats don't care about that.  All I'm comparing is the DPS between MSs, MBD, and a regular DG setup.

[AlterAsc]

affects all cases equally, and only by a little, so that's really a non issue.

That IS an issue.
MSs build have +8 accuracy with a basic pistol on the edge of vision, which translates in 98%.
MBD have +2, which is just 74%.And it blocks EE.
And missing almost quarter of your shots can't be called a little.

[skarczew]

I mentioned that already, that would be one huge variable, affects all cases equally, and only by a little, so that's really a non issue.

Post above. Also I would add that with crappy accuracy hitting targets at the edge of FOV (or outside of it) is really crappy.

Again, mentioned, but I did put some tables together anyway and there really isn't a major effect.

Having tactical, active, or passive defense makes a big difference. "Not a major effect" in your opinion can translate into not being able to kill Cyberdemon, for example, IMHO.

...what?  The same weapon is in every table (except for the speedloaders, but they use the same base weapon).  How does this even matter?  These stats don't care about that.  All I'm comparing is the DPS between MSs, MBD, and a regular DG setup.

Ammo can be a problem at some point. Pure DPS statistics won't tell you that instead of using four bullets to kill something you can use just two.

[punkbohemian]

\you are wrong.
They are not the same.

And MCe is a great addition to DG, thats true.

The are the same to the extent that I die in the exact same spot with both. That is, the lost soul ambush before the bruiser brothers.

[shark20061]

That IS an issue.
MSs build have +8 accuracy with a basic pistol on the edge of vision, which translates in 98%.
MBD have +2, which is just 74%.And it blocks EE.
And missing almost quarter of your shots can't be called a little.

Post above. Also I would add that with crappy accuracy hitting targets at the edge of FOV (or outside of it) is really crappy.

At LOS you lose 26% of your DPS on any build without EE.  No, that's not a small amount.  But it also doesn't always apply, because you aren't always shooting targets at LOS.  I don't care about it for these tables, I already said at the start that I'm not going to take that into consideration, it would be too large of a variable anyway for my purpose.

Having tactical, active, or passive defense makes a big difference. "Not a major effect" in your opinion can translate into not being able to kill Cyberdemon, for example, IMHO.

Two comments.

For monsters:
The only monsters with more than 3 armor are bosses, and, with the exception of AoD (who you can't use pistols against), they don't go any higher than 5.  So for bosses, yes, it will have an effect.  Overall... not so much.  I'm not looking at little corner cases in these tables.  Calculating DPS versus 2 armor cause slightly less than 25% drop in DPS (it has a lower effect than the 25% accuracy penalty does).

For players:
I'm assuming you're firing the entire clip and then reloading afterward.  How you end up playing will lower (or raise) the actual DPS.  As will if you are firing at a target out of line of sight, if you have a modded weapon, if you have other traits that effect reloading and fire time, etc...  All of these things affect DPS, but these tables are just a base representation of what to expect, and I'm making certain assumptions which I know will not possibly always hold true in an actual game.  Same goes for my Expected Level for each Floor tables.

Ammo can be a problem at some point. Pure DPS statistics won't tell you that instead of using four bullets to kill something you can use just two.

(Highlighting mine)
And these are nothing more than pure DPS statistics.  So it's a caveat to the results, not a problem about the results.

[skarczew]

The are the same to the extent that I die in the exact same spot with both. That is, the lost soul ambush before the bruiser brothers.

Well, I had no problems with them ...because I play UV =) .
I would suggest using phase devices, shockwave packs, hellwave packs. Or just complain enough, so the devs do something with Lost Souls =) .

@shark20061:
I just wanted to say that there are things that look good in statistics, and only there :P .

[shark20061]

@shark20061:
I just wanted to say that there are things that look good in statistics, and only there :P .

This would indeed be one of them. :)

[Creaphis]

That is also not necessarily true.  If you play in graphics mode and hit the 'f' key to bring up the target selection, move the mouse around your field of view when you're cornershooting.  There are spaces in your vision that enemies can't shoot you from (you'll see the X turn red over those).

So that's what that means! This should probably be mentioned in the manual or somewhere.

[Ashannar]

Too bad it doesn't work properly. You're better off just getting a feel for it yourself.

[skarczew]

So that's what that means! This should probably be mentioned in the manual or somewhere.

You must have been shot by invisible enemies already. The thing is, you can do the same with them.

And not everything is in the manual, as this game has its secrets and there are only few (?) people that know everything.

[Creepy]

Well, I had no problems with them ...because I play UV =) .

Man, there's something deeply goofy when playing the hard mode ends up making a level easier. =p

[skarczew]

Man, there's something deeply goofy when playing the hard mode ends up making a level easier. =p

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http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,5430.0.html