Chaosforge Forum

  • April 23, 2024, 01:07
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.



Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Placement of Hell's Arena Entrance  (Read 8152 times)

LuckyDee

  • Sound Wizard
  • Grand Inquisitor
  • General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1516
  • High Caliber Consecrator
    • View Profile
    • LuckyDeeIndustries
Placement of Hell's Arena Entrance
« on: April 17, 2012, 00:45 »

The Hell's Arena entrance is set to appear either on level 2 or level 3 of game. Depending what type of game I'm playing, I will either:

1) not care whether it appears on level 2 or 3, since I'm going to be able to beat it.

2) definitely don't want it to appear on level 2, since being able to do level 3 will give me an additional skill and prep me for another after the first few kills on HA itself. If it appears on level 2, I restart the game, since I've done nothing more than complete the Base Entry so far.

Why not have the entrance appear on level 3 by default?
Logged
[0.9.9.7G] Current: Hell Knight 1st Lieutenant [20/12/4/0/0/0]
High: Arch-Vile Lt. Colonel [25/21/12/2/1/0]

MaiZure

  • Marketing/PR Ops Lead
  • Greater Elder
  • Major General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 827
  • Retired 1-Star General (.993)
    • View Profile
    • Project repository
Re: Placement of Hell's Arena Entrance
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2012, 05:56 »

In Roguelikes, we like random things!

I vote it stays just like it is...
...except that rewards double if it's on level 2 :P
Logged
Hell Knight 1st Lt. (.997)
[22/13/9/2/0]

pacmanus

  • Guest
Re: Placement of Hell's Arena Entrance
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2012, 06:10 »

In Roguelikes, we like random things!
If on the right - could change the order of special levels or make a complete random generation, when special levels are generated without any definite rules, without attachment to the order of main line levels.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 06:14 by pacmanus »
Logged

LuckyDee

  • Sound Wizard
  • Grand Inquisitor
  • General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1516
  • High Caliber Consecrator
    • View Profile
    • LuckyDeeIndustries
Re: Placement of Hell's Arena Entrance
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 06:37 »

...except that rewards double if it's on level 2 :P

That might work for me too :)

Except it's irrelevant if you get to be demon dinner instead. Like I said, it depends on the game: I restarted AoB about 5 times to get HA on L3, and even then I barely lived through it. I took one caco hit at most, so nearly all damage I suffered came from melee, which is kind of inevitable in this challenge.
Logged
[0.9.9.7G] Current: Hell Knight 1st Lieutenant [20/12/4/0/0/0]
High: Arch-Vile Lt. Colonel [25/21/12/2/1/0]

Game Hunter

  • Programmer
  • Local Inquisitor
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
  • Looks like game to me.
    • View Profile
    • Channel, the Roguelike
Re: Placement of Hell's Arena Entrance
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 09:57 »

Since Hell's Arena appears as early as it does, it's reasonable to place it at a specific floor because it's a very simple thing to reroll the game if you don't get it at the desired depth. Once the game has gone on long enough, it makes more sense to apply a bit of randomness to special floor depths, since there's far less of a motivation to replay the game just because, say, Mortuary was one floor higher than expected.

However, I took the position that Hell's Arena is meant to be a hard special level, so I placed it (for the time being) on the second floor rather than the third. At the same time (and also for the time being) I reduced the rewards for completing the level. The reasons for these things can't be detailed without spoiling some new features: suffice it to say that I want to make the decision to enter certain special levels a real choice, rather than a nigh-guaranteed "I will come out with more than what I brought in" thought process. This sort of stuff, however, is greatly influenced by beta testing and will almost certainly be rebalanced over the course of the betas, so don't think it to be set in stone.
Logged
I'm just a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude.

Latest LPs: Angband, Delver

Matt_S

  • Elder
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 394
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Placement of Hell's Arena Entrance
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 10:51 »

However, I took the position that Hell's Arena is meant to be a hard special level, so I placed it (for the time being) on the second floor rather than the third. At the same time (and also for the time being) I reduced the rewards for completing the level.
I'm okay with the level 2 placement, but reduced rewards?  You already mentioned removing the cells in another topic, which isn't a big deal I don't think.  Will we be losing the blue armor and large medpack as well?

Quote
The reasons for these things can't be detailed without spoiling some new features:
Ooh, secret new features?

Quote
Suffice it to say that I want to make the decision to enter certain special levels a real choice, rather than a nigh-guaranteed "I will come out with more than what I brought in" thought process.
Will Halls of Carnage get a difficulty bump as well?  It's rather underwhelming considering its name.  Also, only cowards skip special levels >:)

Quote
This sort of stuff, however, is greatly influenced by beta testing and will almost certainly be rebalanced over the course of the betas, so don't think it to be set in stone.
When can we expect a beta version?  I'm very eager to play with these mysterious changes.  For testing purposes, of course :)
Logged

LuckyDee

  • Sound Wizard
  • Grand Inquisitor
  • General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1516
  • High Caliber Consecrator
    • View Profile
    • LuckyDeeIndustries
Re: Placement of Hell's Arena Entrance
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 12:17 »

...I reduced the rewards for completing the level.

I can actually fully agree with this. Referring back to my cases, above:

1) If I don't care about what level the Arena is on (probably because I'm wielding a shotgun), I wouldn't care much for the cells, the Supercharge or the blue armor; I'd only be doing it for the RL, and that only because I aim to do the Wall afterwards.

2) In special cases (such as AoB and AoMr), I'd only be doing it for the experience. Barely surviving is good enough, but it does have to be survivable. Chances with 1 pistol and SOG1 are slim; chances with a knife and BRU1 are too slim. I do realise this might be my personal lack of experience speaking, but as I pointed out, suffering damage on AoB is unavoidable, even if you manage to dodge all ranged attacks. If you don't find an armor before L2 is through, you can kiss it as far as I can see.

So to me it's not a matter of coming out better than you're going in, it's about coming out at all.
Logged
[0.9.9.7G] Current: Hell Knight 1st Lieutenant [20/12/4/0/0/0]
High: Arch-Vile Lt. Colonel [25/21/12/2/1/0]

skarczew

  • Elder
  • Major General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 974
    • View Profile
Re: Placement of Hell's Arena Entrance
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 13:06 »

However, I took the position that Hell's Arena is meant to be a hard special level, so I placed it (for the time being) on the second floor rather than the third. At the same time (and also for the time being) I reduced the rewards for completing the level. The reasons for these things can't be detailed without spoiling some new features: suffice it to say that I want to make the decision to enter certain special levels a real choice, rather than a nigh-guaranteed "I will come out with more than what I brought in" thought process. This sort of stuff, however, is greatly influenced by beta testing and will almost certainly be rebalanced over the course of the betas, so don't think it to be set in stone.
Play the game first before screwing the things that already quite decent.

And please, do not come with "2Dev tested it out and said it is doable, so we increased the difficulty", because I will feed my bunnies with your interiors =) .

Quote
I reduced the rewards for completing the level.
Look above.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 13:55 by skarczew »
Logged

Game Hunter

  • Programmer
  • Local Inquisitor
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
  • Looks like game to me.
    • View Profile
    • Channel, the Roguelike
Re: Placement of Hell's Arena Entrance
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 14:10 »

Regardless of which floor it goes on, I really do want to remove the level range, and the reason is simply because it should reduce rerolling games. Back when Angel of Haste used to exist, the fact that Hell's Arena wasn't guaranteed as the first floor (and, by the rules of AoHa, didn't show up at all) made you either decide to not use it as a stepping stone, or continuously reroll until it showed up. That's an exceptional example (especially because AoHa isn't around) but it's this sort of ridiculous metagaming that I'd like to remove. There are other things we're considering to discourage game rerolls, but they'll also need plenty of testing to make sure none of them end up detracting from real non-meta gameplay.

Play the game first before screwing the things that already quite decent.
It's true that I don't have as much time to playtest the things I implement, especially with regards to entire playthroughs, but please keep in mind that I do come from a well-played background in this game. In fact, I once wrote a rather lengthy guide detailing the kind of strategy involved in collecting certain badges, among other things. So while this may come across as another instance of a dev sitting in his ivory tower, I do understand a good deal of the ramifications when I change things around.

Also keep in mind that, as I said before, these changes are basically proposals and are by no means decided upon. If it turns out that placing Hell's Arena too early makes it and the rest of the game far harder, I have no qualms moving it elsewhere. However, I would like to set up Hell's Arena as a sort of training ground, by which players can test themselves to see whether or not they play the game with a certain degree to skill. The cleanest way to do this is to give them as little advantage as possible entering the level. With this in mind, I have plans to add some extra shells/bullets strewn about the arena on earlier waves, so players aren't screwed because they couldn't find enough ammunition prior to entering. I'm fairly certain that all difficulties clearing the first two floors will reach clvl2 at the least (ITYTD might be one or two kills away), which is more than enough to prepare your traits for whatever build you've focused yourself on. (AoB is a weird exception, and I am very open to the possibility of specifically moving the dlvl in that case to acommodate.)

I'll be specific about the reward reduction as currently changed: I removed the cells entirely and dropped the rocket count to three stacks (as opposed to nine). Back when I would play regularly, Hell's Arena ensured me just about all the rockets I needed to win the game, and this always struck me as too much of a good thing. With this, you have "some rockets", but you'll still need to scavenge for more (and prevents total rocket-spamming on Unchained Court). Concerns regarding The Wall need not apply, as things will change to that level such that you don't actually require rockets to complete it. (It'll still be plenty interesting enough.)

When can we expect a beta version?  I'm very eager to play with these mysterious changes.  For testing purposes, of course :)
Kornel's the person to ask about beta releases. In theory, we could maybe make a "content patch" beta that has changes exclusive to gameplay additions and rebalances (that are either already in the repo or close to it). There's still a ton more work to be done in other areas, however, so you'll have to be patient.
Logged
I'm just a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude.

Latest LPs: Angband, Delver

Matt_S

  • Elder
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 394
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Placement of Hell's Arena Entrance
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 15:37 »

Concerns regarding The Wall need not apply, as things will change to that level such that you don't actually require rockets to complete it. (It'll still be plenty interesting enough.)
Ohoho, you just make me even more curious.  Does this mean AoB/Mr/Sh can clear it without needing phase devices?
Logged

skarczew

  • Elder
  • Major General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 974
    • View Profile
Re: Placement of Hell's Arena Entrance
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 17:53 »

Regardless of which floor it goes on, I really do want to remove the level range, and the reason is simply because it should reduce rerolling games.
Think about people restarting the game only to get certain items, too (mods on AoMr to make speedloader, etc).
Logged

Ander Hammer

  • Elder
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 385
  • burst laser rifle (2d10)x7 [80/80] (H1)
    • View Profile
Re: Placement of Hell's Arena Entrance
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2012, 06:28 »

First special level you'll hit in the game, first special level a new player is ever going to see... I don't see a problem with it being a bit less than hard.

Don't make Hell's Arena a gimme, but don't make it (more of) a deathtrap, either. It's already enough that it frequently spawns you in vision of two lost souls, a demon, and a caco with no nearby pillars (which is programmed right into the level) and your most powerful weapon the vanilla shotgun.

I much prefer the chocolate shotgun, myself.
Logged
Hell Baron Major
[25|20|11|2|0]
Quest: bronzes/silvers i guess
[Inferno] ITYTD Win

Klear

  • Elder
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1319
  • Twisted passages carry the smell of dapperness...
    • View Profile
Re: Placement of Hell's Arena Entrance
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2012, 06:36 »

Hmm.. on the other hand, I remember when I was new to DoomRL, that completing the first round of the arena gave me great satifsaction, I was delighted to beat the second wave, and I knew not to try my luck with the final round.
Since you can leave the arena when things get too rough to you, I don't think it's such a newbie deterrent.
Logged
Arch-Vile Mjr General [24/19/18/8/2] (0.9.9.7)

Quote from: thelaptop
Dude... we need to change your forum handle from "Klear" to "Klear Nukem".

Creaphis

  • Backer
  • First Sergeant
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 110
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Placement of Hell's Arena Entrance
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2012, 13:21 »

If Hell's Arena is going to be fixed to a dungeon level I'd vote for level 3. Speaking as a fairly new player myself, hell's arena is the place where I first figured out the basics of cornershooting and it's good to let the new player get at least a small trait advantage to help them out as they learn this "advanced" skill. It definitely doesn't need to be a "hard" special level as it is the first one we see in the game. Does it really deserve to be the defining moment of every game of DoomRL? Save the real challenges for later levels. The special levels that the player sees the least often should be the hardest, so that they'll also be the most interesting and memorable - the "climaxes" of the game.

As for the specific case of Angel of Berserk, one little change that would go a long way in making the early game and hell's arena survivable would be to make brute's accuracy bonus also improve the throwing accuracy of combat knives. Right now their accuracy without eagle eye is 50% at point blank and probably 25% at full range. If this was boosted to 91% and 75% by a couple ranks of brute then you could reliably chip away at the health of demons and cacodemons before they reach you and end up saving lots of health in the long run. I don't think this is against the spirit of the challenge as thowing knives are a melee weapon, they have a very limited range and damage potential, and brute already improves the damage of thrown knives anyway.

Another thing that could be clarified is the effect that running has on melee damage. I've often found that I can kill a demon in the same number of turns when I'm running as when I'm not. If melee damage is being penalized in some kind of unintuitive way, why not just remove the penalty entirely?
Logged

GinDiamond

  • First Sergeant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 129
  • Warrant Officer-Mancubus, trying to get all Bronze
    • View Profile
    • GinDiamond Stuff
Re: Placement of Hell's Arena Entrance
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2012, 08:34 »


Also keep in mind that, as I said before, these changes are basically proposals and are by no means decided upon. If it turns out that placing Hell's Arena too early makes it and the rest of the game far harder, I have no qualms moving it elsewhere. However, I would like to set up Hell's Arena as a sort of training ground, by which players can test themselves to see whether or not they play the game with a certain degree to skill. The cleanest way to do this is to give them as little advantage as possible entering the level. With this in mind, I have plans to add some extra shells/bullets strewn about the arena on earlier waves, so players aren't screwed because they couldn't find enough ammunition prior to entering. I'm fairly certain that all difficulties clearing the first two floors will reach clvl2 at the least (ITYTD might be one or two kills away), which is more than enough to prepare your traits for whatever build you've focused yourself on. (AoB is a weird exception, and I am very open to the possibility of specifically moving the dlvl in that case to acommodate.)

I'll be specific about the reward reduction as currently changed: I removed the cells entirely and dropped the rocket count to three stacks (as opposed to nine). Back when I would play regularly, Hell's Arena ensured me just about all the rockets I needed to win the game, and this always struck me as too much of a good thing. With this, you have "some rockets", but you'll still need to scavenge for more (and prevents total rocket-spamming on Unchained Court). Concerns regarding The Wall need not apply, as things will change to that level such that you don't actually require rockets to complete it. (It'll still be plenty interesting enough.)
Kornel's the person to ask about beta releases. In theory, we could maybe make a "content patch" beta that has changes exclusive to gameplay additions and rebalances (that are either already in the repo or close to it). There's still a ton more work to be done in other areas, however, so you'll have to be patient.

So, the Wall is getting a major revamp in 0.9.9.7?
Will it now be somewhat survivable for AoSh, AoB, and AoMr?

Oh, and the whole reason I die in Angel of Berserk is because of Hell's Arena.
What exactly kills me is the demons.
Their attack damage is just too ridiculous to fend off with an unmodded combat knife and a green armor (HNTR).
Their speed is also of issue, because you don't exactly jump at Hellrunner in a melee game, you go Brute-->Brute-->Berserker--->Brute or Hellrunner-->Hellrunner-->Hellrunner if you didn't get it already twice-->Blademaster (I'm trying to do a Scout run right now)-->whateverthehellyouwanttowasteyourexperienceonbecauseyouarealreadyprettymuchimortalagainstthesmallerenemies

Could you either:
increase the chance of a bulk/power mod showing up on Lvl2 for AoB or:
somehow nerfing the waves on Hell's Arena *by only a little* so it is more survivable on AoB?

Thanks!
Logged
Do not muddle in the affairs of Dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Pages: [1] 2  All