DRL > Requests For Features

Request Save/Load feature

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RSO:
I disagree.

I can't speak for Kornel, but I'll try to give an explanation of why I disagree with you.

DoomRL is a game of risk and reward. Unlike Doom, and any modern game with a "normal" save/load system, most of the challenges it presents are derived from incomplete information. "I know there's a baron in the next room, but I don't know where. Should I step into the doorway and shoot it or hope it wanders into my view before anything sneaks up behind me?" Since the game is turn based, there's no reflex challenge. I have as much time as I need to make these decisions, but I have to work with the information I have available. It's also a game of taking what I get. If the Railgun drops for me, I need to judge if it's worth changing your playstyle to work with it, or leave it behind.

Giving the player a chance to try something and see if it works without risk removes the incomplete information, and the game becomes trivial. Not only could a player go back if they made a mistake, but they could also literally commit suicide just to get more information, and then load a save and fire into the dark at the places where they know enemies to be. The incomplete information problem would be completely destroyed. I cannot imagine getting into a situation in DoomRL that would kill me twice, and that's been true since about a month after I picked up the game. (Okay, not entirely true. Phobos Anomaly, AoMC+UV or N!, with no phase device or rocket launcher. That would kill me twice.)

Giving the player a chance to try again until they get the drops they want also removes the second point. If a build is absolutely dependent on having the Revanent's Launcher, the player could just repeatedly reload until that weapon drops for them.

DoomRL is very good at defining its own challenges. The badges and ranks system is, in my opinion, absolutely genius. It gives the player a series of progressively harder challenges, tells them to pick the ones that are most interesting to them (as you only need 15 badges of each grade), and then move on. This feature would destroy the entire challenge of every badge that does not require N!, as well as obliterating the game's difficulty curve ("super easy until N!, then comparatively impossible").

This isn't a matter of "hardcore" gamers wanting the most challenge possible. It's not a matter of Kornel being an "elitist" who doesn't want "baddies" or "newbies" winning "his game." It's a matter of maintaining the game's mechanical coherence, where one mechanic doesn't completely destroy the kind of challenge that the rest of the game sets up. A completely free save/load option would be IDDQD to the rest of the game.


--- Quote from: Belk on April 24, 2012, 21:25 ---Please no butthurt about hardcore in this tread.

--- End quote ---
I know you edited this post, but I have to come back and harp on it. Again, to explain why it's the wrong thing to post. It has nothing to do with word choice, and everything to do with intent. The implied argument here is, "And anyone who disagrees with me is a 'butthurt' elitist." That's a transparent strawman, because you're setting it up  before anyone has even replied. Moreover, it sends the message that if anyone disagrees with you, you're just going to stick your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALALALA NOT LISTENING!" and then refer back to your strawman as a rebuttal. It might work to convince people not to waste their time arguing against you, but it's not going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you. It looks hostile, and defeats the point of posting an opinion to begin with.

AlterAsc:
Unlike many RLs DoomRL has difficulty setting.It does not take relatively much time to win your first game on ITYTD/HNTR.Even less if you use wiki.Compare it to the efforts required to win ADoM/Nethack/whatever.
And RSO's post explains.

RSO:

--- Quote from: Belk on April 25, 2012, 00:54 ---Lol, and you right. But. I'l be brief. There is always must be choice.

--- End quote ---

I disagree. DoomRL doesn't need the "choice" of free save/load any more than it needs the "choice" to spawn whatever item you want on demand, activate godmode, or walk through walls, and at least the other three would be transparently cheating, rather than just supposed to be understood to be cheating.

Have there been times when I've wished for this sort of thing? ...Yeah, yeah there have. I make stupid mistakes and try to swim in lava sometimes.

Not quite as often as I've wished for more ammo, though - and that doesn't mean that the game needs to have more ammo in it to be fun, or needs to have the option of a "high ammo mode" where ammo stack size is doubled. :P

Klear:

--- Quote from: RSO on April 25, 2012, 01:07 ---Not quite as often as I've wished for more ammo, though - and that doesn't mean that the game needs to have more ammo in it to be fun, or needs to have the option of a "high ammo mode" where ammo stack size is doubled. :P

--- End quote ---

And yet there is such a mode (ITYTD) =)


--- Quote from: Belk on April 25, 2012, 01:15 ---This is a subjective opinion.

--- End quote ---

Yeah, all opinions are subjective, that doesn't mean it's not valid. The problem here is that with saving/loading, the game would present an extremely tempting way to cheat while playing (and yeah, reloading the same save until you get a good result is cheating). You already can savescum the beginning/end of a level, and you can backup your game after each level so that when you die, you can continue the game from that level. Nobody's going to stop you (though you probably shouldn't post your mortems here if you do that).

Frankly, I would much rather have IDDQD in the game than this.

Pricklyman:
Guys - this isn't a discussion, all the guy wants is a way to play the game his way. (i.e. through the use of save/load)

If you don't want to do it, don't! I don't, but I still have the know-how to make a set of batch files to perform the action.

The same that I know how to club someone to death, but I choose not to.

Remember, this is a "Request" forum, not a demand forum. The man asked, don't bite his face off! (I know you aren't, and I'm honestly pleased to see some rather lucid arguments in the thread...)

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