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Author Topic: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart  (Read 23494 times)

nokturnal

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2007, 16:48 »

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And when you finish normal, you play nightmare, and when you at last finish hell you put your char to thrash?

yeah, then they go to the museum. what do you usually do with your characters when you finish a game? :P

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I don't believe you can finish game on all diff levels with one char without restarting.

i just said i did, if you believe me or not ..i dont care

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I mean using same waypoints several times is kind of restarting too

are you suggesting i should play the game in one run? :D

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DaEezT

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2007, 16:51 »

No, no, DaEezT, I mean that original Diablo is quite an arcade game to me. Kornel wrote that he wants to make DiabloRL basing on Jarulf's Guide and thus making it very close to the original. Diablo isn't very complicated and you expect DiabloRL to be a great epic tale?
I never read anything about "making it very close to the original." from Kornel. But, as I already quoted above, he did say that things from Diablo II might make it into DiabloRL.

If most of rules were implemented and even new dungeons, items, monsters, skills/spells were added, the final product would not fall into the same category as ADOM or Nethack, because Diablo is an arcade hack'n'slash game with just a cRPG elements!
Depends on how you define de boundaries of that "category". Nethack could also be seen as a "hack'n'slash game with just a cRPG elements" depending on how exactly you define the terms. I definitely don't consider Nethack to be some kind of epic, character driven, uber RPG with a novel grade story.

About the whole "acarde game" thing:
DoomRL was based on Doom, but only theme wise! Items, monsters, basic story are from Doom but that's it.
Doom didn't have inventory system, equipment system, traits (BIG feature), reloading/magazins, overcharging, special levels, destructible walls, etc.
So effectively DoomRL was sort of an advance over the original Doom (I said "sort of" because you can't really compare cross-genre). Especially the trait system as it makes things like pure melee or pure pistol possible and with the introduction of weapon mods it gets even better.
So I naturally expect the same basic tendency from DiabloRL. And NO, I don't expect the next version to be OMGWTFBBQUBER ADoM or whatever but the basic tendency should be to take the theme and the good parts and combine them with non-Diablo elements to make a good game istead of making it a watered down clone.
That is why I am very opposed to the thought of DiabloRL ending up as some kind of "arcade" game. AFter all, it already had features like character stats, spells, items/Artifacts, side quests, inventory system, equipment system, in-game story elemnts (talk to NPCs) which are all things that Doom didn't have, and DoomRL turned out to have <edit>some of</edit> them.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 17:12 by DaEezT »
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Zephyre Syx

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2007, 16:54 »

So many viewpoints...

So officially we have but a few choices to do with difficulty level, and level restarts.  I'm gonna list them cause reading this thread is making my head hurt.

1 - Using a hardcore single character and going up in difficulty;normal,nightmare,hell.

2 - Using a hardcore single character that will unlock later difficulties, but can play previous one before proceeding.

3 - I don't really like the others...

While it's true DiabloRL should remain towards the RogueLike roots and the traditions of Diablo, but what are the benefits from those options.  Number two I rather not go with.  RogueLike is all about risk, and because you completed the normal difficulty, why do you want to replay it with that strong character?  Because really not only that your character not grow, but also deprive her from getting some kickass shtuff.  Plus, it make your char look cheap.
In my opinion, I don't think there should be any looking back.  Once you beat hell difficulty, she won, she's done.

And there's this other option I don't know if y'all already said it or not, but regardless, I'm sticking with option one.

4 - Using option two while other difficulties got more sh!t and more rewarding and juicy.  Okey that is option two but whatever...

Edit:four posts started when I was typing.  But I like DaEezT's last comment, the phrase is "away from traditions".
From Kornel's readme file..."Programmer''s edition -- how the author himself see''s the world of Diablo".  It going which away from the start, so what's done to DoomRL, the same goes with DiabloRL.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 17:08 by Zephyre Syx »
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DaEezT

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2007, 17:00 »

1 - Using a hardcore single character and going up in difficulty;normal,nightmare,hell.
[...]
While it's true DiabloRL should remain towards the RogueLike roots and the traditions of Diablo, but what are the benefits from those options. [...]  RogueLike is all about risk, and because you completed the normal difficulty, why do you want to replay it with that strong character?  Because really not only that your character not grow, but also deprive her from getting some kickass shtuff.  Plus, it make your char look cheap.
In my opinion, I don't think there should be any looking back.  Once you beat hell difficulty, she won, she's done.
I second this (because I wanted the same system all along :p)
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nokturnal

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2007, 17:26 »

my major argument for having a mode WITHOUT permadeath, is the way diablo (& hopefully diablorl) is focused around the interplay between items and skills - if you want to survive on hell you NEED gear specific for your class, and particular build.
now, most roguelike have items that looks something like this:

a +0, +1 short sword

.. or when they really go wild maybe
a +3, +5 flail of the apocalypse, with one or 2 additional stats. i.e most of the time its not that hard to find what you need.


in diablo (again refering to no2) items might look like this:

Cloudcrack - Gothic Sword

One-Hand Damage: (42) To (120)
Two-Hand Damage: (97) To (180)
Required Level: 45
Required Strength: 113
Required Dexterity: 20
+150-200% Enhanced Damage (varies)
6% Chance To Cast Level 7 Fist Of The Heavens On Striking
Adds 1-240 Lightning Damage
10% To Maximum Lightning Resist
+30 Defense
Attacker Takes Lightning Damage Of 15
+2 To Defensive Auras (Paladin Only)
+2 To Offensive Auras (Paladin Only)
+2 To Light Radius

now, consider how much more angry you would be, after hours and hours of dungeon crawling, and you finally find that ultimate item for your character, only to see him permanently die a while later.. in nethack or whatever there's always a pretty good chance you can find that apocalypse mace or equivalent, and gear is not as big part of the game as in the diablo series.
now, of course i dont excpect as elaborate items as shown above, but its still very much the essence of both diablo games, finding the perfect randomised gear for your char.

as much all you hardcore RL'ers scream for permadeath, I as a hardcore D2'er, scream for a non-permadeath option :D
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Adral

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2007, 17:31 »

now, consider how much more angry you would be, after hours and hours of dungeon crawling, and you finally find that ultimate item for your character, only to see him permanently die a while later.. in nethack or whatever there's always a pretty good chance you can find that apocalypse mace or equivalent, and gear is not as big part of the game as in the diablo series.

You just provided the solution to having permadeath and ph4t l3wt in a single pack: making special items appearance nethack-like. Perhaps a guaranteed "wish" after a certain quest (or completing a difficulty level) or just making nice items appear more frequently.

That way we can have both, what do you think?
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nokturnal

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2007, 17:37 »

You just provided the solution to having permadeath and ph4t l3wt in a single pack: making special items appearance nethack-like. Perhaps a guaranteed "wish" after a certain quest (or completing a difficulty level) or just making nice items appear more frequently.

That way we can have both, what do you think?

was that a joke? sorry i dont quite follow you :P
 nerf the ph4t diablo l3wt into nethack looking stuff? if thats what you mean, i think its the worst idea ever :D. and the wish part ..have i really smoked to many joints today, or is your english really weird? :)
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Adral

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2007, 17:47 »

was that a joke? sorry i dont quite follow you :P
 nerf the ph4t diablo l3wt into nethack looking stuff? if thats what you mean, i think its the worst idea ever :D. and the wish part ..have i really smoked to many joints today, or is your english really weird? :)

Wasn't a joke this time. :P

What I mean is that we have NICE Diablo stuff but with Nethack probability of getting it. That is why I said perhaps being able to "wish" for certain items, just like in Nethack, might be one solution to the problem: you would know that after completing each difficulty level or a certain quest, you would be able to wish for the item of your choice. This way you could get the weapons/armor you haven't found and you need for higher difficulties.

The other option was to just have them appear more frequently. In Roguelikes a good player knows how to use the items, so the difficulty would be to choose your equipment wisely to get the best weapons/armor/etc for your class/build combo. That's what happens in Crawl, too. You end getting up nice items, so the difficulty and the fun part of it is choosing what are the best -foo-s that suit your needs.

Making the nicer items too hard to find would make us play over and over again on "safe" zones until the item you want appears => repetition and boringness, in my opinion. Also, as you said, a killed character would make us angrier since we would have invested much more time in it.

And I don't think you should speak of weird English - yours is much weirder than mine :P.
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DaEezT

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2007, 17:48 »

my major argument for having a mode WITHOUT permadeath, is the way diablo (& hopefully diablorl) is focused around the interplay between items and skills - if you want to survive on hell you NEED gear specific for your class, and particular build.
now, of course i dont excpect as elaborate items as shown above, but its still very much the essence of both diablo games, finding the perfect randomised gear for your char.
That basic idea is probably why we'll never find common ground :p
It's the reason why I could never stand to play a D2 character for more than a week or any MMO for a longer period of time. I loath the idea of having to farm specific gear for some specific build for a specific class because the game designers made the game too hard to beat otherwise. I can nuke/BFG/slice&dice Cybie, why do I need that Hammer Of Paladinism to kill Diablo?

now, consider how much more angry you would be, after hours and hours of dungeon crawling, and you finally find that ultimate item for your character, only to see him permanently die a while later.. in nethack or whatever there's always a pretty good chance you can find that apocalypse mace or equivalent, and gear is not as big part of the game as in the diablo series.
That point makes no sense to me :/
What you saying is that because in Diablo II the drop rate for good items is so low that it takes long to farm it would be bad to have permadeath in DiabloRL?
As you mentioned yourself the chance of finding a good items is higher in Nethack and other RL's. That is because they have permadeath.
The drop rates in D2 have to be low because a palyer can just do Mephisto/Baal runs 24/7 but you can't do the same in Nethack.

The whole drop rate thing is part of the game balance and of course a balanced Rogue Like with permadeath would have different drop rates than Diablo II has.
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nokturnal

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2007, 18:03 »

What I mean is that we have NICE Diablo stuff but with Nethack probability of getting it. That is why I said perhaps being able to "wish" for certain items, just like in Nethack, might be one solution to the problem: you would know that after completing each difficulty level or a certain quest, you would be able to wish for the item of your choice. This way you could get the weapons/armor you haven't found and you need for higher difficulties.

its not a bad idea, tho personally i like to hack my way to the items :). and in diablo2 there's is a few similar quests already, in act1 you get to 'imbue' a non-magical item, into a rare item with random properties, and later you are also rewarded a rare item. theres is however no way to wish for any specific items or stats. and just getting exactly what you wish for isnt any fun imo, i like randomness :)


Quote
The other option was to just have them appear more frequently. In Roguelikes a good player knows how to use the items, so the difficulty would be to choose your equipment wisely to get the best weapons/armor/etc for your class/build combo. That's what happens in Crawl, too. You end getting up nice items, so the difficulty and the fun part of it is choosing what are the best -foo-s that suit your needs.
Making the nicer items too hard to find would make us play over and over again on "safe" zones until the item you want appears => repetition and boringness, in my opinion. Also, as you said, a killed character would make us angrier since we would have invested much more time in it.

in diablo there already is a fun way to up you chances of getting better items, the Magic Find or MF stat, which appears on certain items, and on gems and runes, which you can insert into gear which is socketed (sacrificing other important runes & gems of course).
this would in my mind be a better approach, the nethack/crawl take on that, wouldnt be in the spirit of diablo imo.
i can agree to up 'the starting base' for finding good items a bit tho..
and like i previously stated, there really isnt any need to replay areas of d2 if you play the game right.


Quote
And I don't think you should speak of weird English - yours is much weirder than mine :P.

oh really? i guess i have smoked too many joints :P
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nokturnal

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2007, 18:21 »

That basic idea is probably why we'll never find common ground :p
It's the reason why I could never stand to play a D2 character for more than a week or any MMO for a longer period of time. I loath the idea of having to farm specific gear for some specific build for a specific class because the game designers made the game too hard to beat otherwise. I can nuke/BFG/slice&dice Cybie, why do I need that Hammer Of Paladinism to kill Diablo?

now i dont play mmo's, but like i said before, you dont HAVE to replay/farm areas in d2 to beat the game.
however, i personally love the idea of collecting gear for a specific build so i guess we're at a dead end there :D

now, consider how much more angry you would be, after hours and hours of dungeon crawling, and you finally find that ultimate item for your character, only to see him permanently die a while later.. in nethack or whatever there's always a pretty good chance you can find that apocalypse mace or equivalent, and gear is not as big part of the game as in the diablo series.
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That point makes no sense to me :/
What you saying is that because in Diablo II the drop rate for good items is so low that it takes long to farm it would be bad to have permadeath in DiabloRL?

no, what i'm saying is that items in diablo is of bigger importance than items in say nethack. the entire game is focused around the items. and you DO find them without farming, i've stated several times i dont farm myself and finish the game just fine :P
its just that when you find the perfect item it is so much more rewarding, than finding that apocalypse mace for the 50th time.
items in diablo are so much more diversesified and has so many more stats than most roguelikes, thats why its so much more rewarding finding items in d2. and since the randomness of the stats on items is so diversified, you dont need to search for one SPECIFIC item..

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As you mentioned yourself the chance of finding a good items is higher in Nethack and other RL's. That is because they have permadeath.
The drop rates in D2 have to be low because a palyer can just do Mephisto/Baal runs 24/7 but you can't do the same in Nethack.
drop rates on special ber unique items from e.g baal is low, yes. but like i said before, you dont NEED those items, they are just the true icing on the cake when you get them. and wouldnt be much fun if you found them all the time..
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The whole drop rate thing is part of the game balance and of course a balanced Rogue Like with permadeath would have different drop rates than Diablo II has.

and thats why i propose a separate 'hardcore mode' for all you hardcore RL'ers, like d2 hardcore mode which also have higher drop rates.
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Ugm

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2007, 03:32 »

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And when you finish normal, you play nightmare, and when you at last finish hell you put your char to thrash?

yeah, then they go to the museum. what do you usually do with your characters when you finish a game? :P

If we are refering to Diablo, I play them until leveling becomes boring. I just play them for fun. Winning is not quite a goal in Diablo games, you should know that.

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I don't believe you can finish game on all diff levels with one char without restarting.

i just said i did, if you believe me or not ..i dont care

What clevel did you have upon finishing each difficulty?

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I mean using same waypoints several times is kind of restarting too

are you suggesting i should play the game in one run? :D

No, it's you who suggest that. You're telling us, that you ran through a game stopping only at waypoints treating them like saving game in rogulikes, which would be fine. Look closer at the bolded part of what you have quoted.
So why are you laughing now?

I never read anything about "making it very close to the original." from Kornel.

Ok, now I see that I misunderstood that Kornel's basing on Jarulf's guide part. But that was basis of my conception! Aargh! Stupid me ;)

If most of rules were implemented and even new dungeons, items, monsters, skills/spells were added, the final product would not fall into the same category as ADOM or Nethack, because Diablo is an arcade hack'n'slash game with just a cRPG elements!
Depends on how you define de boundaries of that "category". Nethack could also be seen as a "hack'n'slash game with just a cRPG elements" depending on how exactly you define the terms. I definitely don't consider Nethack to be some kind of epic, character driven, uber RPG with a novel grade story.

I mean those elements that doesn't exist in Diablo like whole interaction, extended inventory, using of items and so on. But since simplicity of Diablo has nothing to do with DiabloRL (my fault, my fault), I give up that argument.

That is why I am very opposed to the thought of DiabloRL ending up as some kind of "arcade" game. AFter all, it already had features like character stats, spells, items/Artifacts, side quests, inventory system, equipment system, in-game story elemnts (talk to NPCs) which are all things that Doom didn't have, and DoomRL turned out to have <edit>some of</edit> them.

Maybe it's just naming two different things by us. I consider Diablo partly arcade because of its simplicity mentioned many times before. I don't want to go further with DiabloRL. Quite the contrary, I'd love to see new features and enhancements which would make roguelike version more complex.

It's the reason why I could never stand to play a D2 character for more than a week or any MMO for a longer period of time. I loath the idea of having to farm specific gear for some specific build for a specific class because the game designers made the game too hard to beat otherwise. I can nuke/BFG/slice&dice Cybie, why do I need that Hammer Of Paladinism to kill Diablo?

I agree with you. Game should be playable in enjoyable way without need to restart your character to do the same quest dozens of times (that is balancing matter, of course).
But all this wasting of heroes after killing Diablo is just... undiablish ;)

It'll be ok, though, if DiabloRL will be a roguelike based on Diablo, not a roguelikefied game itself.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 08:59 by Ugm »
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DaEezT

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2007, 05:22 »

no, what i'm saying is that items in diablo is of bigger importance than items in say nethack. [...] you dont need to search for one SPECIFIC item..
[...]
but like i said before, you dont NEED those items, they are just the true icing on the cake when you get them. and wouldnt be much fun if you found them all the time..
In the post I replied to you clearly said:
if you want to survive on hell you NEED gear specific for your class, and particular build.
YOU even capitalise "need" and said it in context with "specific class" and "particular" build.
need
  verb 1 require (something) because it is essential or very important. 2 expressing necessity or obligation

So, what is it supposed to be? First you say one thing and then you claim the opposite.

My answer was to that post and in that post you claimed that certain rare items are mandatory (= you need them) and then gave an example from Diablo II and based on that deducted:
now, consider how much more angry you would be, after hours and hours of dungeon crawling, and you finally find that ultimate item for your character, only to see him permanently die a while later.. in nethack or whatever there's always a pretty good chance you can find that apocalypse mace or equivalen
And that simply does not make any sense at all.
You can't just use the drop rate (which is a specific feature of Diablo II) and transfer it 1:1 to another game (especially since that game isn't even half done if you believe the version number) and then argue the bad side of permadeath based on that.
Diablo II is not a RL!
Diablo II only has permadeath as an optional feature
Diablo II let's you restart as often as you want.
And those three factors influence the drop rate, NOT the other way around.
RL's are different in those any many other ways(they are turn based and give you unlimited time to devise a strategy) and of course that affects the drop rate and availability of items as every sword dipping cat lover knows.

Here's another nice quote and I don't know how it fits in.
the entire game is focused around the items. and you DO find them without farming, i've stated several times i dont farm myself and finish the game just fine
So you DO find them without farming and do 'just fine' eh?
So why keep arguing some non permadeath approach based on the arguement that it takes "hours and hours of dungeon crawling" to get specific items if you DO find them without farming and also do 'just fine'?

Since you contradict yourself I can draw two conclusions:
a) Specific items are needed in Diablo II and are also hard to find. In that case you don't need to worry because DiabloRL will not be a 1:1 D2 clone and be balanced in itself so the drop rates will be fine in the permadeath context.
b) Specific items are not needed in D2 and you just like to farm them for 'fun' (as it is not needed) to turn your character into a god even though you can beat the game 'just fine' without farming. In that case it would be pointless to have a restarting/non-permadeath system as you yourself stated that it's not needed and you can do 'just fine' without it. So leaving it out wouldn't hurt, or would it?


The main point of this and my previous post is:
The Diablo II SPECIFIC drop rates can not be translated into DiabloRL. Any arguement based on the rarity of Diablo II items has no meaning for DiabloRL as it is a completely different game.
It's the same as Doom vs DoomRL: Ideas/theme: yes; exact numbers: NO
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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2007, 12:35 »

HOLY SHIT! And I thought I write scrolls :P
Ok, I'm trying to read most of it, but please forgive me if I write as if I missed an entire post - I may have.

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no, what i'm saying is that items in diablo is of bigger importance than items in say nethack. [...] you dont need to search for one SPECIFIC item..
NetHack has intrinsics which are needed, [almost] period, to win the game, so that's not entirely true. Maybe "items" aren't needed, but there are other aspects to consider.

now, consider how much more angry you would be, after hours and hours of dungeon crawling, and you finally find that ultimate item for your character, only to see him permanently die a while later...
You haven't played much of Linley's Dungeon Crawl, have you...? That's *exactly* what happens there, and there are randarts just like in D2, and I've found myself punching walls and restarting computers out of spite :P That game's cruler than any other I've ever seen.
So yeah, shit happens, and then you start over, and over, and over again. I've beaten the game and there was *nothing* more rewarding than that.

However: this's exactly the reason I wan't massive playability with a single char - Pandemonium (infinite, rerolled "dungeon" with an extremely high level of risk) is the part of LDC you can just keep playing, (because I don't like the "she won, she's done" approach - I like having a char I sweated through to pit against powerful enemies over and over again, or weak ones just for show - I've earned it). Problem with Pandemonium is that it can get so tough at times, that it isn't really ment to be replayed that much - any char has its weak spot which is bound to be exploited badly in there, and some Pandemonium levels are practically auto-defeat, plus there's no easier spot to play that way if you're anywhere under a certain bar (negative energy, torment, hellfire and energy blasts *will* get the best of them sooner or later). The Abyss isn't much to compare, because from my experience it's only worse.

I LIKE collecting items (and spells), and playing god on lesser beings. That's why I imported a char from BGII:ToB into BGII:SoA (I just noticed - ToB=(S+1)o(A+1). Heh). A mage of that status's just plain fun!
That's nothing to do with balance - I'm just plain sadistic :P
And neither does mid-game restart, if that IS the method of balancing.
This is about gaming style - not *if* we wan't a good game but *how* we want a good game.
Some of us like it force-stream-lined and some of us like it freestyled, but I think we all agree we want a game not too easily beaten.

So I still say we just need both modes!!!
Since we've concluded (AFAIR) that scoring's based on an honour system, if someone beats the hardcore mode, he'll boast that, and if someone rampages through Diablo's halls as an ubermensch and wants to describe the story as a role-played massacre (which I like alot), so be it. If someone farms the normal mode and boasts as hardcore, screw him. The scoring system can also include a restart-counter for each game played.

But that's just on the matter of restartability.
I'm all against savegames ^^
And that's 'cause I'm also just plain masochistic :P
Seriously, now, that's just not for a roguelike.

nokturnal

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2007, 16:13 »

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YOU even capitalise "need" and said it in context with "specific class" and "particular" build.

yeah, you obviously havent played d2 lately, what i've been trying to say all the time is that you dont need ONE SPECIFIC ITEM, i.e "the holy bat of milk" of whatever, in d2. what you do need is items with STATS that suits your specific class and build. this CAN be achieved by farming bosses for super-uniques, but it can just aswell be achieved by collecting rare items, which are totally randomized. which was my point, and which i also love hacking away to find. i've played dungeon crawl lots of times, and the randomization of items there is a joke compared to diablo really.
the fact that i said that i love to spend hours on finding items i still stand by. this IS what diablo is about!! the game is long enough as it is without loads of hours restarting...

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My answer was to that post and in that post you claimed that certain rare items are mandatory (= you need them) and then gave an example from Diablo II and based on that deducted:

its funny how yall have such a clear idea of how a diablorl should look like, since you obviously dont know how diablo(2) really works, again it's the stats your'e after, and rare items are randomized so you really cant collect the same one twice..
(rare items was not in d1, i know, but since kornel hinted they will make diablorl, its still relevant i think)

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You can't just use the drop rate (which is a specific feature of Diablo II) and transfer it 1:1 to another game

have i ever stated this? i even said previously that i could agree with and 'upped base' for finding special items. i just want an RL of the diablo games to stay true to the essence of diablo..


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You haven't played much of Linley's Dungeon Crawl, have you...? That's *exactly* what happens there, and there are randarts just like in D2, and I've found myself punching walls and restarting computers out of spite :P That game's cruler than any other I've ever seen.
So yeah, shit happens, and then you start over, and over, and over again. I've beaten the game and there was *nothing* more rewarding than that.

actually i have played it several hours, and also been really close to some wall punching :P. diablo is a quite lighthearted, casual, easy-to-get into rpg.and this is also one point why i want a non-permadeath mode. call it kiddie mode, adventure mode whatever. 
when i play an RL, i'm after a true strategic challenge, like you say 'nothing more rewarding than' beating it (not that i have).
this is not the case when i play d2 however, its more of a lighthearted thing i do for enjoyment and relaxation.
on hell its hard enough as it is, which is fine, but adding permadeath as a mandatory thing would totally destroy the diablo experience for me.

since were never gonna agree on this, i'll try to summarize my points on this. i'd want a diablorl that:

1. is as focused on items as the originals

2. have 3 difficulties like the original (the restarting thing.. doesnt matter how that turns out imo)

3. has modes both for permadeath and without, ..like d2

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