Other Roguelikes > DiabloRL
Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
DaEezT:
OK, let's look at the "originals" and see what we can come up with.
Diablo 1
Single player
* No difficulty setting
* Restart any time
* Redo quests
* No XP for weak enemies
* Walk through all the levels (no short cuts)
Multi player (Only played two or three times years ago)
* Difficulty settings
* Acceess to difficulties based on clvl
* Restart any time
Diablo 2
Single player
* 3 difficulty settings
* Each character has to unlock the higher difficulties by beating the game
* Restart any time
* Quests can't be redone
* No XP for weak enemies
* Waypoints are kept
* You can come back to lower difficulties
Multi player
* 3 difficulty settings
* Each character has to unlock the higher difficulties by beating the game
* Restart any time
* Quests can't be redone
* No XP for weak enemies
* Waypoints are kept
* You can come back to lower difficulties
* Hardcore mode
My initial suggestion would be like the hardcore mode in D2: You have to beat the lower difficutlties with each character seperatly to unlcck the higher ones and if you die you die for good. And the saving system is also like in RLs. You save when you exit and load when you start a game and you can't back up your save etc.
The only two differences are restarting (= creating new games in multi player) which is a source for items/gold/XP and the ability to go back to lower difficulties.
So the difficulty depends on how balanced the game is and how much you have to rely on luck. In D2 you had to spend most of the time prior to playing hell difficulty on the hunt for items. Mosty resistance items since hell reduces all resistances by XX (was it 60%? not sure). So all you did was do Mephisto/Baal runs intil your equipment was up to the task.
For DiabloRL I'd stick to what I said in my first post, including the possibility of an AoLS. Having to paly through all difficulties and restarting on normal once a char dies isn't really the issue. It's how long a single run takes. e.g. if you can beat normal in 1 hr and die halfway through nightmare it's not a big deal. If normal takes 20hr then it is.
Other RLs (ADoM, Nethack) can also be quite long (10+ hrs) and you also don't get to "restart" for XP/item scumming so I don't think it is essential here either IF the game is balanced.
Maybe you could implement restarting as sort of a training option and see how it works out (balance). It would allow the character to restart the game with the current character but doing so bars that character from moving up to the higher difficulty.
Another big question is how to handle quest rewards on higher difficulties. D2 had no pre defined items as rewards but D1 did and the Cleaver isn't really much of a reward on Hell :p
Malek Deneith:
--- Quote from: DaEezT on December 26, 2006, 03:58 ---OK, let's look at the "originals" and see what we can come up with.
Diablo 1
Single player
* No difficulty setting
--- End quote ---
Not completly true - in Hellfire addon you could choose difficulty levels.
TFoN:
--- Quote from: Malek on December 26, 2006, 06:19 ---
--- Quote from: DaEezT on December 26, 2006, 03:58 ---OK, let's look at the "originals" and see what we can come up with.
Diablo 1
Single player
* No difficulty setting
* Walk through all the levels (no short cuts)
--- End quote ---
Not completly true - in Hellfire addon you could choose difficulty levels.
--- End quote ---
And it saved "gates" you've entered previously with that char, like the crack to Hell.
--- Quote from: DaEezT on December 26, 2006, 03:58 ---Other RLs (ADoM, Nethack) can also be quite long (10+ hrs) and you also don't get to "restart" for XP/item scumming so I don't think it is essential here either IF the game is balanced.
--- End quote ---
These games have lots of monster spawning, and methods to use them for good item gain (i.e. sacrifice, which can also be heavily scummed).
That's why I said in my first post "unless monster spawning will be implemented", but I deem this VERY outside the spirit of Diablo ("undiabloish" just doesn't sound right :P ).
Yes, you said "IF the game is balanced". Absolutely true. But a one-run Diablo game would require, IMO right now, either very early ability-gain and quick XP jumps or a massively tweaked late/end-game, either way making all the different ability-monster crosses crowded (i.e. pitting lvl1 novas against horned-demons and steel lords, neither of which happened often in Diablo, for different reasons). And the way I see it, that's too-much not what the original game was about (even if this one's still a good game).
Another thought I had, however, and I think won't ruin the original feel much and won't hamper scoring, is a much longer dungeon, maybe with a shortish, crowded end-game like in Diablo, with "pick-and-play" ordinary difficulties, with a quickly escalating game as the challenge of harder difficulties (like with DoomRL).
But I still believe mid-game/made-char restart is a main feature of Diablo, very much worth keeping (although, yeah, tweaked to prevent easy escape :P WoW's exit-interval in game-turns?).
I think your idea of testing game-restart as a training option at first's a good idea, if Kornel can handle the load :) (Keep up the good work, man! Can't stress it enough)
As for Cleavers in Hell - could make it interesting and make unlockable item abilities for massive use and/or XPlvl.
The Cleaver could then give a strength bonus proportional to your level, and after the 600th kill/30th lord kill/100,000 XP gain with it (depending on method of balancing), gain a good chance to vorpal strike ;)
That would make pre-gens the same on every difflvl, but still way better on the higher ones (30 lords on Normal come very slowly, 100,000XP hard to gain on weakened monsters), if you play right. It also wouldn't be much off Diablo spirit, with D2's sets and XPlvl requirements.
PS: this is why I mentioned my idea now - better bring these things up early, so programming can go on later with a list of ready ideas and with less sudden questions.
Also, it lets Kornel know we're still interested :)
nokturnal:
--- Quote ---My initial suggestion would be like the hardcore mode in D2: You have to beat the lower difficutlties with each character seperatly to unlcck the higher ones and if you die you die for good. And the saving system is also like in RLs. You save when you exit and load when you start a game and you can't back up your save etc.
The only two differences are restarting (= creating new games in multi player) which is a source for items/gold/XP and the ability to go back to lower difficulties.
So the difficulty depends on how balanced the game is and how much you have to rely on luck. In D2 you had to spend most of the time prior to playing hell difficulty on the hunt for items. Mosty resistance items since hell reduces all resistances by XX (was it 60%? not sure). So all you did was do Mephisto/Baal runs intil your equipment was up to the task.
--- End quote ---
as a diablo2 addict, i agree that you should have to beat the lower difficulties first. when it comes to permadeath im kind of torn. yes, its a major "feature" of roguelikes, however, like you say, if each difficulty takes an hour, its ok. but ..i dunno the essence of diablo is really like you say, a hunt for items until you reach the "real" difficulty level.
and i like that, spending loads and loads of hours, just to find the ultimare random or unique item, to prepare yourself for hell difficulty.
and if this game turns out similarly, it would pretty much suck if your spend 6-7h in normal/nightmare, only to see all you collected vanish from a some stupid mistake once you enter hell :P
oh, i believe resistances goes -50% (or 40%) once you enter nightmare, and then to -100% on hell.
Zephyre Syx:
Nice, I love this suggestion. I agree with the hardcore game of completing difficulties consecutively (I think that what y'all saying). Uh...if spawning is implemented, I suggest that It'll be limited for so many times per floor, so that it can be possible to fully eradicated everything on the floor if you have the time (and bloodlust) to hunt them all down. Spending time on a game before proceeding to the upper levels isn't too bad scumming if you're limited in enemies to find and items. I do kinda think if you finish the game, it'll jump directly to the next difficulty for round two so I guess before you get to that point you do all that you can before then.
Wow though, what if you're still hungry for some whoop-ass after a healthy helping of hell? That REALLY have to wait til later. =)
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