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Author Topic: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!  (Read 17608 times)

Reef Blastbody

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Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« on: August 15, 2012, 11:04 »

I was kind of curious to see what everyone felt was considered "optimized" for DoomRL. I don't mean in general; I'd like to look at things one by one specifically.

For an example, the pistol. If you were going to use the pistol and only the pistol and no other weapon (not even other types of pistols), what would be the "best" mods to put on your pistol? I'll explain a little more...

AlterAsc raised an interesting point when he was explaining his choice of mods/traits when using rapid-fire weapons, and it basically boiled down to the notion that an optimized version of any particular weapon would be the version that provides you the most DPS (there are possibly only two exceptions to that rule as far as I could see, rocket jumping and wall breaking), since most of the time in DoomRL, you're aiming to kill something and to kill it as quickly as possible.

It's true that there are many different playstyles and builds in DoomRL, but I think it should be possible to hash out some rough "optimized builds" for specific weapons based with maximizing DPS. I've recently gotten hooked on the Wiki and am in the middle of doing a huge overhaul to the weapons sections, but I lack the technical knowledge to do it successfully on my own. I've already templated all the weapons, all the weapon families, set up game data/strategy tabs, updated the front page, and have organized strategy sections for the weapons based on family and individual weapon. Most of those however, are empty. There were a few existing articles that I moved/incorporated. This is where everyone else comes in!


As AlterAsc also pointed out, making the DPS too high (I believe 12 for most ranged) will cause knock back, which at the moment is triggered before damage, meaning that multiple shots will push the enemy back and cause them to avoid the damage from subsequent rounds. I assume this is not intentional and will be amended in a later version, so assuming this is the case, there's two things I'd be looking at doing.

1) Optimization of the Pistol for 0996
2) Theoretical optimization of the Pistol.

I only want to focus on the Pistol right now because the boards have been a little quiet lately and I'd like to do things one at a time if I can. I intend to either spark enough interest in this idea that people will help put stuff on the wiki, or if they're not interested in editing the wiki themselves (as I know some people don't want to bother learning wiki syntax or are busy with other projects), at least post your knowledge here and I'll gladly crib what I can and credit the poster in the talk remarks for that section.

Again, I'd like to make it very clear that I know and understand part of the fun to DoomRL is playing how you want, and that there are tons of options and builds available. By no way shape or form am I claiming that using an 'optimized' build aiming to do the most DPS is 'the best', or 'the right way' -- I'm not trying to start or enforce that kind of thinking. What I am trying to do is present it at least as an option and to make use the wiki. The strategy section is woefully barren and I'd like to do whatever I can to help that.

So, if you actually read all of that, thank you, and secondly, heeelp meee dooo thiiiis.

That being said, I open the floor for general chicanery, and hopefully some discussion on specifically the Pistol. Once that's done, I'll move on to the next, and the next, and the next...
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AlterAsc

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Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2012, 14:30 »

As AlterAsc also pointed out, making the DPS too high (I believe 12 for most ranged) will cause knock back, which at the moment is triggered before damage, meaning that multiple shots will push the enemy back and cause them to avoid the damage from subsequent rounds. I assume this is not intentional and will be amended in a later version, so assuming this is the case, there's two things I'd be looking at doing.
DPS usually means damage per second, and i think you meant damage per shot.
The problem is not the fact that damage is applied after knockback(though i heard of this, but iirc this was fixed) but the fact that every shot is calculated separately and applies knockback separately too.This issue is known by devs afaik, and will be fixed some day.

My opinion on pistol mods:
First of all as with SoG5 your firetime is 0.1s anyway, applying T-mods is useless if you plan on reaching SoG5.If you don't, then T1 can reduce firetime from 1.0 to 0.8 (15% rounded down).More than that is unneccesary and even T1 is questionable.
Then you generally want P-mods, the more, the better.
After that B-mods is what you want, as pistols have small clips.
Agility mods don't offer much.
So So P3B2 is probably the best setup for almost any build.
About MBD - can't say much, but as you can't take EE, A1 or A2 may benefit a bit.DPS is not a problem, as you have SoG,SoB,DG and TH, so B-mods may be the best solution, so you don't have to reload constantly. A1B3P1 is what i would probably go with.
Assemblies that can be applied to pistols:
Speedloader - better then nothing.
High power - if you're okay with clip of 4, you might go with it.Useful in the hands of someone without DG(aiming for MSs) and using ammochain in offhand.
Energy pistol - allows you to cut through walls if you're persistent.Theoretically (i have to try it someday) this is the way to pass The Wall on AoMr (starting Techincian with 2T and finding lucky P).Helps against Revs.And lost souls.But chews cells.
Storm bolter - dunno/
Demolition ammo - possible choice if you somehow have WK2 and firestorm mod.



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Reef Blastbody

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Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2012, 14:51 »

Awesome, this is what I was hoping for. So to summarize your reasoning :

An ideal mod set up for the pistol would be P3B2, on the grounds that it is already accurate enough that it gains no relatively important benefit from A modding (is that assuming they have EE2 or even if they didn't, it would still likely be the best choice?), and that a build with the pistol in mind would likely utilize SoG5 to cut firing time down to  0.1s. Even if you weren't going to use SoG5, as you said, the benefit of T modding it at that point isn't significant enough to outweigh the benefits of P modding or B modding.

Would the same apply to Dualgunner, that you would want both pistols to be P3B2?

And as for MBD, you said A1B3P1. I assume you went B3P1 because the amount of extra shots you get to fire with MBD would provide more damage over-all due to the number of bullets, instead of using something like A1P3B1?

As for the assemblies :

You said speedloader was better than nothing, but it isn't better than just straight P3B2 I imagine?

Same question, but for High Power Pistol (P)?

Sorry for the endless questions, I want to try to refine this as much as possible and understand it too.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2012, 22:00 »

Speedloader and high power are basic assemblies and don't requier anything except basic mods.
Only Techician can pick WK easily, other classes have to take Fin2 and on lower difficulties you may reach WK(2) really late.So P3B2 is good, but walking with a basic pistol until level 22(just example) is boring(can't choose the right word).Until then speedloader or highpower can be your main weapon.


A-modding: pistols have +4 accuracy. Back in time when i didn't reach N! yet, i won near 100% UV masterless game without taking EE at all and i didn't think i was not accurate.Now i curse everything and everyone if i don't have EE1, and still curse a bit without EE2.Conclusion: +4 is not that bad, but i want more.
The usual reason that you don't need to apply A-mods is the fact that you can just take EE. The ones who can't - MBD, MMB with pistol backup, MVm can theoretically use pistols too(but i never seen it).So for them A-mods can be useful.


DG doesn't change much.Actually pistols have the same problem with knockback as rapid-fire weapons, but with 2 shots it isn't much of a problem.But MBD users can suffer as they unload a lot and they have SoG and SoB.

For MBD i said A1B3P1, because i think it's more important to reload less, and on MBD you have to reload a lot.
But it may not be the best setup for combat pistol as it has clip of 15 already and a bit more accurate(+5), so A1P2B2 or maybe P3B2 may work better.
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Klear

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Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2012, 02:51 »

In the end, the best thing you can do is find the Trigun or GCB =)
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AlterAsc

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Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2012, 06:59 »

No, not even close to the best thing.
Combat pistol (3d6) [26/26] (P3B2) is soooooo much cooler than Trigun and GCB in single.
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Reef Blastbody

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Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2012, 07:17 »

explanation

The more I see, the more I have a sneaking suspicion that Technician is the best class for pistols. But that is a topic for another time, after we get through Weapons and end up in Classes. I know they kind of overlap, but for now, the main focus is the weapon itself.

With what feedback you've given me so far, I think I can pretty much wrap up the Pistol entry for the wiki. Plus, you've provided me ample segway into the Combat Pistol, which was my next topic.

So, Combat Pistol. Higher clip size, higher base accuracy, higher damage (I think. The d3 may be where things get weird? On average it should be higher but it may interact with traits/mods in an undesirable fashion that I don't know about), but slower reload time. Is there something I'm missing out on as to why people don't use this over the regular Pistol (other than possibly the wait period to get it?) You've already touched on it a little bit, but it seems like you were only advising it for MBD and that the pistol itself is better for DG. I will likely mercilessly and incessantly ask you questions every single day if just for your opinion alone, so if you ever get burnt out by it, tell me to knock it off and I will attempt to prey upon others hahahaha.


In the end, the best thing you can do is find the Trigun or GCB =)

Oh, we'll get to those. Hahaha. I'm being OCD enough that I'm doing this *per weapon*. I still need to laboriously pour over Energy Pistol, Speedloader, etc, etc. I am literally going to treat this like "what if you only found this weapon *weapon of current discussion* and no other weapons, what would be the best possible choice(s) you could make with it to be effective?"

And then at the very end, once each weapon is done, then I do the whole "Okay, now you're playing DoomRL and you have some choices here. What is the smartest choice to make?", which like you said, would be to use what you can get to start, but ideally aim to snagging yourself a Trigun/GCB/AFJ/whatever is the "best".


No, not even close to the best thing.
Combat pistol (3d6) [26/26] (P3B2) is soooooo much cooler than Trigun and GCB in single.

Oho. This is what I mean. I think access to WK2 and 5 mods really means that vanilla weapons have the possibility to trash the unmoddable ones unless they are completely OP.

Mind you, Trigun having the "lol nuke time" option is a totally different ballgame, but we'll get there. We'll get there.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2012, 07:42 »

Quote
why people don't use this over the regular Pistol
Because there's no guaranteed way to get it.Only random drop.And AoOC.
Yes, damage is higher. 3d3 is always better than 2d4(3-9, avg of 6, 2-8, avg of 5).And due to difference in number of dices, each P-mod increases the gap.
And even though it reloads slower(1.8 vs 1.2) clip if 15 is a godsend.
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Reef Blastbody

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Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2012, 09:06 »

I think I finally am starting to get it.

Regular combat pistol, 3d3, 15 in the clip.

A high power combat pistol is 3d3+2, clip cut down to 9 or 10 (not sure if you round up or down with assemblies), so average 8 damage.

Or, even a single P mod on the combat pistol changes it to 3d4, keeps the clip size of 15, and the average damage is 7.5. With two P mods, 3d5, average damage of 9. Or, the same mods that you'd need to make a high power version, P and B, but not assembling, gives you 3d4, 7.5 dmg, and 19.5/20 (?) shots.

Basically, the high power assembly is bad. For everything! I can't think of a single sitatution where it would be preferable to use the high power assembly rather than just straight up putting the P and the B mod on the gun and NOT assembling it.
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Klear

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Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2012, 09:26 »

Basically, the high power assembly is bad. For everything! I can't think of a single sitatution where it would be preferable to use the high power assembly rather than just straight up putting the P and the B mod on the gun and NOT assembling it.

How about a build without WK?
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Reef Blastbody

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Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2012, 09:38 »

Hmm. Fair enough.

Well, assuming you're not going for WK at all, you could still build the hp combat pistol, like you said, due to it being a base assembly.

So you could have either a (P) combat pistol at 7.5 dmg and 15 shots, or a high power combat pistol at 8 dmg and 10 shots. I don't know if I'd still be willing to do that.

Basically P mod for +1.5 points of damage or HP assembly for +2 points and less ammo. It's definitely more of a possible choice without WK, although I think I'd rather have the extra shots.

With WK, it's jank.
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Klear

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Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2012, 09:52 »

10 shots is more than enough for a dedicated pistol build, IMO. Basic pistols only get 6 shots and they are still deadly when your pistol build comes together.
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Reef Blastbody

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Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2012, 10:25 »

10 shots is more than enough for a dedicated pistol build, IMO. Basic pistols only get 6 shots and they are still deadly when your pistol build comes together.

That is a very good point.

Non-WK pistol builds that are lucky enough to come across a combat pistol may want to have a high power combat pistol then. Possibly.

Bullet Dance lets you fire extra bullets, so you may want extra bullets, but as you said, even an HP'd combat pistol has more boolets than regular pistol. I don't think an HP'd regular pistol itself would be a good idea at all though, with only 4 shots.

Gun Kata lets you fire faster if you dodged, and you get a free reload when you kill what you aimed for. HP'd pistols in general may work with this. Assuming you're getting the free reload off aimed shot, and you can kill them before you run out, you would never need to reload.

Sharpshooter (although the likelihood of making a Technician who does not take WK at all is slim, it is still a possibility) maxes the pistol damage at all times. In this instance, I don't know if the 2 points of damage is going to be worth the loss of ammo and a P and a B mod.

Why?

With Sharpshooter, your damage is essentially going to always be 8 (regular pistol/blaster), or 9 (combat pistol) on unmodded guns, or 10 on an hp pistol/blaster and 11 on an hp combat pistol.

OR... Just put a single P mod on each of those guns. (P) pistol/blaster now does 10, and (P) combat pistol will always do 12.

You'll get either the same damage or more from using a single P mod rather than building hp guns with a Sharpshooter build.

So HP'ing a gun is potentially only going to be worth it for Marine or Scouts.


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Klear

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Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2012, 10:50 »

Frankly I think Bullet Dance is quite useless. It takes too long to setup and you're IMO better off with a masterless build.

I think I've seen HP pistols used with Gun Kata. With sharpshooter, you will definitely want to get WK2, so basic pistol mods are not what you're looking for.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2012, 12:19 »

Quote
A high power combat pistol is 3d3+2
NOOOOOOOOO.That's now how mods(or even assemblies) work.P-mods never add anything directly, they change either size of dices, or number of dices.
So it is 3d(3+2) = 3d5. Avg of 9.
Basically high power assemblies benefit is the same as from P2, but it also reduces your clip.
There is a point of assembling high power combat pistol. As i already said you don't need to WK for it, so non-Tech can be quite happy with it and focus their traits on something more useful than taking Fin2.

MGK with HP pistol is a gamble.8 bullets may not be enough to kill someone if something go wrong.

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