Chaosforge Forum

  • June 23, 2024, 15:05
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.



Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Need expert help with the (un)chained court.  (Read 9524 times)

Sylph

  • Elder
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 322
  • Galaxy Angel
    • View Profile
Need expert help with the (un)chained court.
« on: September 22, 2012, 22:04 »

Hi folks,
I've been having an absolute nightmare completing this level. I can't for the life of me figure out a method of completing it with any kind of success rate.

I've been away a while, so I guess I should (re)introduce myself. I used to be able to finish the game with a conquerer ending on ultra violence pretty much every game. I got quite a few nightmare wins under my belt, including 4 diamond badges, so super-basic general doomrl tips aren't needed.

The problem I'm having is that I just can't clear this level efficiently on ultra violence. I even save-scummed a character and experimented on it just now. About a year ago, I remember doing this, and finding a (somewhat) reliable method to getting it cleared on any difficulty, including nightmare, but the latest version has made changes to the level that makes it impossible for me to tackle it reliably.

I've read posts and guides that offer the tactic of 'pick up some berserk and a chainsaw, then run out and charge the arena master'. I've even seen game hunter's videos that demonstrate him doing just that on an earlier version of the game. It doesn't work for me anything like reliably. In fact, I just save-scummed and tried it about 10 times in a row (taking down fearsome former humans with rockets or shotgun, charging the arena master).
Likewise, going round the back (on the right) and berserking barons, before getting back into the starting room and knocking opponents into lava (my old reliable tactic) doesn't work due to the monster's new penchant for walking the long way around, and more importantly due to that stupid new bug that means waiting on the spot gets you shot at from a monster around a corner that is out of your line of sight...
So what else to we have? Pillboxing in the doorways? Tried it with shotgun, pistol, chaingun, and rocket launcher. All of them fail... Basically that arena master ends up blowing the start room to pieces, and then I'm standing there fighting a monster that I can't beat...

I'm stumped. :(

What's the current accepted most reliable tactic for tackling this level?
Ideally, I'm after something that works 95% of the time, regardless of build (meaning it doesn't need berserker, intuition, army of the dead, SoaG, eagle eye, or anything).

Can anyone help an old doomrl veteran out here?

To add - fighting the arena master in melee with berserk on still loses me about 120% health (4 small medpacks) if I go out into the open to fight him.
To further add - the problem certainly seems to be the arena master just being too tough... corner-shooting is enough to get him to 'scratched'... shotgun knockback traps get him to wounded on a good day. After that, I don't have time to reload, I have to get busy with rockets, and seriously fighting the guy with a rocket launcher and blue armour uses up a large and 4 small medpacks. There just seems to be no safe way of fighting him, because one of his blasts is all it takes to demolish the starting room, leaing me with no corners to shoot around.
Is the idea here just to carry 6+ medpacks into the level? Because if so, I have to say it's an extraordinarily badly designed level...
There must be more to it than this.
To further still add - I've been on this for 3 hours so far. 1 single tactic that felt even remotely repeatable, and basically involved a ridiculous spamming on health packs, and a wasted agility mod on a rocket launcher...
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 23:22 by Sylph »
Logged
Badges:
DRL:26 22 22 19 13 6
  JH:15 13 11   7   2

Napsterbater

  • Elder
  • Sergeant Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Need expert help with the (un)chained court.
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2012, 22:40 »

I just started playing UV, and I'm having decent success with a Shottyhead build. Start Rel -> Rel, then pick up HR while in the Arena, then go Finesse or Shottyman depending on when CC generates. You need Shottyman for CC+. Ideally you'll have Shottyman, Fin1 AND HR1. Finesse helps with the Barons. You can turn on run mode, sidestep until the Baron moves/fires, you'll probably dodge, then you can shoot and he won't have enough time to catch you flat-footed. Use a small medpack after you're done to replenish run mode and health rather than a zerk. You should not be using any medpacks at all until CC, save them for CC and the Wall.

Try to kill the Barons without using a zerk or grabbing the saw. You can usually corner-shoot the top-left hand Baron pretty easily from the top left door, you may also get lucky with the bottom-left hand one. If not I try to lure the Baron into the pathway and then push him into the lava with a shotgun blast. Then I usually go around to the top from the left hand side and grab the shells, hopefully there's another Baron in the top-right that you can corner shoot from there, if not, I switch on running and take them on out in the open, being careful not to let the Baron blasts destroy the A-mod. With HR, Fin and SM, it's doable, especially if you can get a Supercharge before going down the Stairs.

Once the Barons are out of the way, I grab one zerk and the saw and make my way towards the AM, shotgun in hand. With SM and zerk the fight through the captains is simple, but once I get to the AM it gets a little dicier. This fight is what you saved all those medpacks for. Switch to the saw and cut him up. Grab the staff and use it to kill off the remaining captains in your vision range. Then you have to clean up, radar shooting with a shotgun works well as you probably won't have a whole lot of health left. Then pick up the other zerk, make a shiny pair of Tac Boots and head for the stairs.
Logged

Sylph

  • Elder
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 322
  • Galaxy Angel
    • View Profile
Re: Need expert help with the (un)chained court.
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2012, 22:51 »

Try to kill the Barons without using a zerk or grabbing the saw. You can usually corner-shoot the top-left hand Baron pretty easily from the top left door, you may also get lucky with the bottom-left hand one.
Thanks, trying this now. So far, in 3 tries, I've not had a chance to corner shoot the top baron without getting seriously wounded by former captains, ripping apart a suit of armour and a medpack. Also, one of the times, a baron came in from the right during the attempt, ruinding my chainsaw when I ran for him, but I'll persevere, I'm just scared that this might not be a reliable way of starting the level... Maybe I could just shut myself outside of the starting room if one comes from the right, but this seems highly dangerous as well...


Quote
Once I get to the AM it gets a little dicier. This fight is what you saved all those medpacks for. Switch to the saw and cut him up. Grab the staff and use it to kill off the remaining captains in your vision range. Then you have to clean up, radar shooting with a shotgun works well as you probably won't have a whole lot of health left. Then pick up the other zerk, make a shiny pair of Tac Boots and head for the stairs.
See, this is kinda what I was afraid of. I could probably finish the level maybe 80% of the time if I burned up my entire stock of armour and medpacks, but surely kornel hasn't designed a level that is completely devoid of tactics, and just down to itemisation? This isn't the roguelike I signed up for...
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 22:55 by Sylph »
Logged
Badges:
DRL:26 22 22 19 13 6
  JH:15 13 11   7   2

Napsterbater

  • Elder
  • Sergeant Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Need expert help with the (un)chained court.
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2012, 22:56 »

That said, CC+ on UV is hard, it's supposed to be hard, and there's really no way to do it reliably without a build-specific strategy, because that would mean you could do it with a reasonably equipped level one character, and that just isn't going to happen. I think the basics of beating it are, kill the Barons first, go out the left and around the back, (otherwise Barons tend to destroy the saw/zerks) then deal with the captains with ranged weapons and the AM in melee, zerked, with medkits. You shouldn't need to compromise your build, (say, by using one of the A-mods on the rocket launcher) but you will have to tailor your start strategy up to that point. (save your medkits)
Logged

Napsterbater

  • Elder
  • Sergeant Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Need expert help with the (un)chained court.
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2012, 22:58 »

Thanks, trying this now. So far, in 3 tries, I've not had a chance to corner shoot the top baron without getting seriously wounded by former captains, ripping apart a suit of armour and a medpack.
Radar shoot out the top-left and bottom-left before going after the Baron. There are two captains just outside vision range of the door that will come after you if you don't deal with them first.
Logged

Napsterbater

  • Elder
  • Sergeant Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Need expert help with the (un)chained court.
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2012, 23:05 »

Oh, I usually don't bother with armor for CC+. I go in with green and come out naked, not bothering to put on more until I hit the next level. I usually also have a couple of medpacks left. It's hard, and requires tailoring your early game towards just one level, but in my opinion the XP and A-mods are worth it in the long run. If you think it's too hard or not worth doing, then feel free to skip it, it's not absolutely necessary unless you're after a certain badge/challenge.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 23:09 by Napsterbater »
Logged

Napsterbater

  • Elder
  • Sergeant Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Need expert help with the (un)chained court.
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2012, 23:10 »

One thing you may want to try is putting blue on as soon as you see the AM. That may make that battle go a lot smoother.
Logged

Sylph

  • Elder
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 322
  • Galaxy Angel
    • View Profile
Re: Need expert help with the (un)chained court.
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2012, 23:12 »

I'm kinda focusing on conquerer runs here, so I'm aiming towards 100% enemies slain, all special levels visited. I already don blue armour shortly before reaching the AM, I know about his fire damage type change.

Your advice was good, I've gotten up to about 60-70% win rate without using many medpacks or burning through that much armour.

Just a note - not having to tailor your build doesn't mean 'can do it with a level 1 character'. I don't know where you got that idea from. I'm after general strategies that can work, at some resource cost to the user, for pretty much any reasonable level 4-5 character (ie not a specific character). Level 1 characters have nothing to do with this.

Anyway, seems you can corner shoot the bottom baron pretty well using a chaingun or a pistol, and corner shoot the top one from inside the doorway using pretty much any weaponry. This, plus the strategy of going out the front door (left) then moving round back before getting zerks, seems to be a winner. I'll try a few tweaks until I can get that near-100% mastery of the level. So far I haven't been able to kill the AM while saving a berserk, which is more costly after the level is finished, of course, but this may be an unspecialised technician thing, and the 'resource cost' I was expecting.

Thanks again. Your posts were pretty much exactly what I was hoping to see in the discussion here. I'll let you know if I have any insights. :)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 23:18 by Sylph »
Logged
Badges:
DRL:26 22 22 19 13 6
  JH:15 13 11   7   2

Napsterbater

  • Elder
  • Sergeant Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Need expert help with the (un)chained court.
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2012, 23:21 »

Just a note - not having to tailor your build doesn't mean 'can do it with a level 1 character'. I don't know where you got that idea from. I'm after general strategies that can work, at some resource cost to the user, for pretty much any reasonable level 4-5 character (ie not a specific character). Level 1 characters have nothing to do with this.
What I meant by this was that if you were looking for a strategy that would guarantee victory for a character that would work just as well for a dualgunning pistolleer as a shotgunner, well you might as well have one that would work for a level one character, because both builds are very different and have different things available by the time they hit CC. Even a sharpshooter vs. Gun Kata build are going to need different strats due to the fact that GK is much more likely to have HR, and even one level of HR means you can dodge your way to victory with the Barons. With EE/SoG you have to play the waiting game and while the captains won't be as much of a problem, the Barons will. Saw's the best way to kill the AM at any rate, the tricky part is getting to him.
Logged

AlterAsc

  • Supporter
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 399
    • View Profile
Re: Need expert help with the (un)chained court.
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2012, 05:28 »

I do it that way: take one berserk, kill barons on the right, destroy their corpses, kill barons on the left, gib their corpses too, lure AM, kill him with chainsaw or with rockets.If i'm going to kill him with a chainsaw then i equip blue armor from HA. My weapon of choice for barons and formers is a shotgun. Works on UV and N!.
I can write detailed algorithm of my actions if you want.
Logged
(0.9.9.6 - ?) Arch-Vile Chaos Lt. Colonel [26|20|18|16|12|2]

Sylph

  • Elder
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 322
  • Galaxy Angel
    • View Profile
Re: Need expert help with the (un)chained court.
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2012, 07:55 »

I do it that way: take one berserk, kill barons on the right, destroy their corpses, kill barons on the left, gib their corpses too, lure AM, kill him with chainsaw or with rockets.If i'm going to kill him with a chainsaw then i equip blue armor from HA. My weapon of choice for barons and formers is a shotgun. Works on UV and N!.
I can write detailed algorithm of my actions if you want.
Ooh, yes, I'd love that. Whenever I try such a strategy, a single berserk wears off before I can kill all 4 barons whichever way I walk out of the starting room, so some detail as to whether you leave to the right, circle round the outside to the left, or go back into the starting room before dealing with left barons etc would be great...
Or maybe it's just that you're using a marine, and the powerups last longer?
I dunno, some detail on exactly what you do and when, and which builds it has worked successfully with, would be great! Thanks!

Napsterbater - I still think you're a bit off the mark with your level 1 analogy. Level 1 characters can't exactly handle, say, the mortuary, but I could still write up a general strategy for dealing with the mortuary, or the arena, or the wall, or the lava pits, or the armoury, etc. Any of these 'general' strategies can work with minor adjustments for any build.
Alternatively, I could write a guide for beating any of these levels with ammochain without taking a hit.
I'm sure you can see the difference, and it doesn't mean that the 'general' guide is pointless or appropriate for a level 1 character. x
Logged
Badges:
DRL:26 22 22 19 13 6
  JH:15 13 11   7   2

Napsterbater

  • Elder
  • Sergeant Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Need expert help with the (un)chained court.
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2012, 11:01 »

Quote
Napsterbater - I still think you're a bit off the mark with your level 1 analogy. Level 1 characters can't exactly handle, say, the mortuary, but I could still write up a general strategy for dealing with the mortuary, or the arena, or the wall, or the lava pits, or the armoury, etc. Any of these 'general' strategies can work with minor adjustments for any build.
Alternatively, I could write a guide for beating any of these levels with ammochain without taking a hit.
I'm sure you can see the difference, and it doesn't mean that the 'general' guide is pointless or appropriate for a level 1 character.
Try the new Angels of Confidence/Overconfidence sometimes. A level one character can do Hell's Armory, a level two/three character can do UC. Heck, even the Wall could probably be done with a level one character. The only thing that changes is traits, it's not like you get more health or stats, unless of course you pick those traits. With equipment and tactics, a level one character can be quite deadly.

But UV CC+? Fuggeddaboutit! You need to make the most of every last boost from every trait you pick.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 11:05 by Napsterbater »
Logged

AlterAsc

  • Supporter
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 399
    • View Profile
Re: Need expert help with the (un)chained court.
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2012, 14:23 »

Decided to test if my skill got rusty, and recorded my UV CC+ attempt. Gloriously failed.
Anyway, here's the algorithm:
1.Turn on running, take top-right berserk pack, open the door NOT diagonally.Not diagonally because if top-right baron was hasty he could  try to shoot you.If he hits you, you can lose berserk pack, if he misses you can lose both the other pack and chainsaw.
2.Shoot blindly to kill formers and check for a baron.
3.Enter the doorway, radarshoot.
4.If you see baron at the top, cornershoot him.Gib the corpse.
5.Try the same with the baron on right-bot.
6.If baron enters from the left, get out, so you don't risk destroyng your healing.This may cause problems if barons at the right are both alive, be creative here.
7.After all barons are killed lure AM.
-Cornershoot if you have Rel2 or Fin2.
-If you have EE you can try using RL on distance.
-If none, then take chainsaw and use it.If needed use rocket jump to get near him instead of walking and being blasted.

Here's the link illustrating my failed attepmpt to use steps above: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20476654/2012-09-24_000618537.flv
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 14:35 by AlterAsc »
Logged
(0.9.9.6 - ?) Arch-Vile Chaos Lt. Colonel [26|20|18|16|12|2]

Sylph

  • Elder
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 322
  • Galaxy Angel
    • View Profile
Re: Need expert help with the (un)chained court.
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2012, 13:00 »

Decided to test if my skill got rusty, and recorded my UV CC+ attempt. Gloriously failed.
Anyway, here's the algorithm:
1.Turn on running, take top-right berserk pack, open the door NOT diagonally.Not diagonally because if top-right baron was hasty he could  try to shoot you.If he hits you, you can lose berserk pack, if he misses you can lose both the other pack and chainsaw.
2.Shoot blindly to kill formers and check for a baron.
3.Enter the doorway, radarshoot.
4.If you see baron at the top, cornershoot him.Gib the corpse.
5.Try the same with the baron on right-bot.
6.If baron enters from the left, get out, so you don't risk destroyng your healing.This may cause problems if barons at the right are both alive, be creative here.
7.After all barons are killed lure AM.
-Cornershoot if you have Rel2 or Fin2.
-If you have EE you can try using RL on distance.
-If none, then take chainsaw and use it.If needed use rocket jump to get near him instead of walking and being blasted.

Here's the link illustrating my failed attepmpt to use steps above: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20476654/2012-09-24_000618537.flv

Thanks for the help. I've tried this 3 times so far... First try, i did really well, until the arch-vile came through the right-hand door. Second try, went quite badly. AM showed up before all the barons were dead, and I ended up in a horrendous crossfire trying to protect my berserk packs. Ultimately I got really lucky and managed to sneak a berserk pack from pretty much under AM's feet, but still had to fight him while under baron fire, and used 6 small, 2 large medpacks. A lot of luck granted me a horrendously inefficient win. Third try, the barons on the right were in a wierd position, and knocked me into lava while I tried to radarshoot them. I scarpered back to the berserk packs, but they got blown up by baron fire, so I quit the attempt.
I'll persevere a little longer, but so far this seems like rather a luck-based and inefficient method for the level.

The crux of the issue, judging from your replay, and from the many attempts that I've had so far, seems to be selecting the right moment to charge the AM. Too soon, and you get shredded while running out there, followed by death by baron on your return. Too late, and the arena master comes to ruin your start location/berserk packs.

That being said, I'd had most luck, so far, with the following technique:
(And this is the draft of the entry that will go into my guide when I get around to updating it for the current version)

- Leave start room to the upper-left (thanks napster). Shoot out former humans using shotgun or chaingun. Stand in or outside doorway and try to get barons into corner traps (if possible). Destroy corpses of any barons.
- As soon as it becomes apparent that this is no longer sustainable (usually from barons approaching from the right, *inside* the start room), go into running mode and run around the top of the start room. If you encounter a baron above the start room, then go around the bottom instead.
- Position yourself above the upper-right of the start room wall (or below the lower-right if you had to go bottom). Camp here corner-shooting and trying to trap more barons (thanks AlterAsc), preferably getting the ones inside the starting room to leave, where you can knockback trap them into lava. Use a small medpack if at all needed.
- As soon as it becomes apparent that this is no longer sustainable (due to a baron or AM coming at you from the top-left), go into running mode again if available, get back into the start room, grab both berserk packs and the chainsaw. (Note - if there is a baron or AM inside the start room, pray, then do another circle around it, and start chewing medpacks like candy).
- Charge the AM (usually to the left, listen out). Slightly closing before 1-hit shotgunning any chaingun guys. Don blue armour when you're halfway there. Slay the AM with the chainsaw.
- Use health packs where necessary, don't use AM's staff if it's gonna do any damage to agility modpacks (I made this mistake so many times), preferably use running mode to travel right and get back into the (intact) start room. Close 1 door, leave the other open. Stand diagonally adjecent to the closed door. Shotgun any former humans you see. Any barons, run them in circles around the front of the start room.



I'm not sure what I have to add to this, really. About 40% of the time it uses only 1 medpack. Another 40% of the time something goes a little wrong and I end up using about 3 medpacks. About 1 in 5 games go badly wrong and I have to last it out with horribly inefficient medpack spamming until I catch a lucky break. If anyone has anything they feel works better as a general guide to CC+, let me know and I'll keep trying with it. :)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 14:12 by Sylph »
Logged
Badges:
DRL:26 22 22 19 13 6
  JH:15 13 11   7   2

AlterAsc

  • Supporter
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 399
    • View Profile
Re: Need expert help with the (un)chained court.
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2012, 17:12 »

Tried my strategy once again.
SoB2,Fin1, WK1(2). Took WK as filler trait.
6 attempts from the same save file.Started CC+ with 30% hp.
4 won , 3 of them with one pack left intact, in 2 of 4 had to use 1 small medpack.Once it was just to be safe.
2 lost, first when i was at 64% hp and allowed two captains kill me, other was when AM lost his focus when i was retreating for chainsaw and i lost my berserk  when searching for him.
So i think my strategy is not really luck based. Both deaths were due to my mistakes.
If interested, i can post them too. 30 Mb all.
Quote
Too soon, and you get shredded while running out there, followed by death by baron on your return
I believe that leaving barons behind and charging for AM while here's somewhere in the open is a very bad idea.
First of all there's a lot of captains, which can do substantial damage to you. And you're not even sure you can retreat if things go wrong, because there can be a baron blocking your way to your healing.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 17:21 by AlterAsc »
Logged
(0.9.9.6 - ?) Arch-Vile Chaos Lt. Colonel [26|20|18|16|12|2]
Pages: [1] 2  All