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Author Topic: Balance suggestions  (Read 71233 times)

bwross

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #120 on: April 09, 2013, 05:50 »

This is true, but with it blocking Dualgunner, Berserker and Triggerhappy, the only weapon specific skill it doesn't block is...Shottyman.

Which isn't incredibly important to the playstyle as those other three skills are anyways, so you can just skip it if you wanted anyways.

The only one that matters with Scavenger is Triggerhappy.  Building towards melee or pistols doesn't make as much sense when your master trait is pretty much designed to give you a source of S and F mods, so Scavenger should be treated as a rapid-fire build.  You do get offense as part of building it:  the two levels of EE make rapid-fire weapons much nastier (pretty much required if you care about actually getting any efficient use of ammo and time with RF weapons), especially when you add an S mod.   You also need the first level of Int, taking the second and making it an SS weapon makes things even better... it's a poor man's MCe, you don't get the damage per bullet, but you do hit with almost every bullet and at further than normal sight range... plus, you get fancy toys because you have WK2.  Losing Triggerhappy isn't too bad... one F mod can replace it on a weapon for you, allowing you to spend those two levels on something else without losing too much.

Oh, and another thing.  MSc is quick to get and I find that a Juggler start can work quite well (even though it puts off things for two levels).  Juggler helps with the toys you'll have later, and helps provide early offense with a stack of weapons (especially shotguns).  Weapons which you can also store mods on for later, giving you a boost to inventory size.  It's not amazing, but storage potential is a perk of MSc that's overlooked.

This is essentially what you can reasonably plan for and pull off in the standard game.  Getting an N mod is sweet, but you can't count on it, so you shouldn't take MSc expecting that.  It's not an incredible package, but it is what it is, and you can make it work if you don't ask for more than it's likely to give you... meaning scavenge ruthlessly (ie upgrade your rocket launcher so you can scrap missile launchers) and make your plans around getting S and F mods.  N and O mods are bonus and are easy to work with if they do show up.  Part of the fun of the lesser master traits like MSc is figuring out how to make them work and then executing it.

As for improving MSc... improve mods/assemblies and MSc just naturally improves (as does things for other characters).  But I wouldn't go so far as to mess too much with how scavenging currently works.  I'd rather see scavengers get the ability to mod things better... something like the ability to add more than one mod to some assemblies (or add one mod to more uniques), or perhaps the ability to add a mod to an assembly made before getting WK2.
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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #121 on: April 09, 2013, 06:03 »

or perhaps the ability to add a mod to an assembly made before getting WK2.

I believe unability to mod assemblies made prior to getting WK2 is there because of technical difficulties with implementing it. If it could be done, everybody would be able to do it.

In any case, I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment.
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SageAcrin

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #122 on: April 09, 2013, 08:32 »

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I'll grant you that playing melee without BER (or MMB to compensate) is going to be a pain in the ass, but a pistol build without DG is no problem whatsoever,

In this case, the problem is no DG and you're passing up Sharpshooter, though.

There's no way to reconcile the damage drop compared to Sharpshooter, for a lot of levels. It'd be one thing if it was a sidegrade build, but this is the class that gets a really good single gun build as well.

The only skill that Sharpshooter notably blocks(besides Dualgunner, of course, but it's obvious why it blocks that.), that can't be replaced with another skill, is SoB, and SoB takes until the final levels unlock at 12+ to exceed it. (And the exceed then is debatable...I know if you had, say, an Energy Combat Pistol, that's going to do basically as much damage with L5 SoB as Sharpshooter, same with a Cleric in single shot mode.)

So, again, it's still essentially only worth considering as competition incredibly high levels(Where you can get L5 SoB/L5 SoG and come out ahead-which is of course ten levels worth of skills alone, and only achievable at L14.). While I haven't really ran ridiculously high difficulty at ridiculously high levels yet(My N! run cleared rather low level), I have the sinking suspicion that you're basically not in that much trouble at extremely high levels, and that Scavenger is rarely getting you a notable advantage early on.

Basically, just because it works doesn't mean the skill's any good. Besides, the skill is neat and gets people some of the grindier badges faster, meaning that people would take it if it was totally useless anyways.

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The only one that matters with Scavenger is Triggerhappy.  Building towards melee or pistols doesn't make as much sense when your master trait is pretty much designed to give you a source of S and F mods, so Scavenger should be treated as a rapid-fire build.  You do get offense as part of building it:  the two levels of EE make rapid-fire weapons much nastier (pretty much required if you care about actually getting any efficient use of ammo and time with RF weapons), especially when you add an S mod.   You also need the first level of Int, taking the second and making it an SS weapon makes things even better... it's a poor man's MCe, you don't get the damage per bullet, but you do hit with almost every bullet and at further than normal sight range... plus, you get fancy toys because you have WK2.  Losing Triggerhappy isn't too bad... one F mod can replace it on a weapon for you, allowing you to spend those two levels on something else without losing too much.

Building towards melee would be kinda weird, yes, but the option is denied anyways.

I think the above discussion shows how I feel about pistols, but it's worth noting that there's definitely some debatability to saying it's a bad build for pistols. I agree that rapid fire is still the obvious option.

The problem with it as an optimal rapid fire build is that, in the beginning, you can't rely on getting any specific mod-much like anyone can't. If you look over the numbers on the wiki(which are presumably still accurate?), there's two 1/6 chances on an exotic weapon, for Sniper/Firestorm. Now, a Unique has good odds, but there's no guaranteed Uniques, as there shouldn't be, and the fact remains that you may actually want to use a unique, instead of taking a spin on the RNG.

Those are nice on a rapid fire, but Sniper is redundant with EE to a degree-you'd really rather have SoB-and if you can reach the fixed chance Exotics, it's usually not much more of a jump to reach for the fixed chance special mods that can appear in early areas as well.

In other words, you can reproduce a maybe advantage with a certain advantage, just by going with Triggerhappy instead, and possibly reproduce that mod advantage as well. From the viewpoint of reliability, going with Triggerhappy is better, and from the viewpoint of trying to game the RNG, while Scavenger does it more reliably, it doesn't actually produce any advantages you can't get another way, or give much of any reliable advantages.

This boils out a little differently long term due to the fact that you're likely to get a lot of lesser mods, though. The biggest advantages of Scavenger seem more likely to be things like "Moderately reliable Cerberus Boots/Tactical Boots" and "Being able to mod any decent armor you come across with your basic mods/assemblies of preference", but they still take forever to get going as advantages, and you still have to accept a restricted set of abilities for it.

Essentially, it isn't actually useless, it's just not notably better than nothing(that is, no Master traits). If it's better at all.

It's also really not that bad with shotguns, incidentally. I just went with the weapons I happened to find when I used it, and they happened to be good Shotguns, so I rolled with it. The only problem was, it never gave me any realistic advantages-since it was Ao100, I ended up using Unique armors and an Onyx I found on the floor, and my main weapon was a Nano Shrapnel Double Shotgun, with the Nano also found just laying around.

Thinking on it, that flexibility is part of the problem, isn't it? Uniques are really good, the build is an all-rounder designed to mod the best weapon it finds, and it has to break down some of the best weapons it finds to get any really special mods reliably. (And, of course, it can't mod them at all.) It actually plays counter to the all-rounder style it's meant to represent. Funny.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 08:46 by SageAcrin »
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bwross

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #123 on: April 09, 2013, 13:55 »

Well, yeah, assuming that the build is an all round flexible build is part of the problem.  MSs and DG are only two of the reasons why MSc shouldn't go pistols... the clincher is the unique pistols.  You're bound to see one and if you have it in your mind that you might use it then you've pretty much given up on truly scavenging from the start, because that's too many of the few unique items that you can tear up.  Ideally, your plan should be to maximize the number of weapons you're willing to tear down.  That means having a solid plan on what you will be using, right from the start.  Don't be fooled into playing it as a General master... it will definitely suck if you do.

Another problem is playing scavenger with Ao100.  I did that once, figuring it might be useful without the special level mods.  It didn't work out that way, I had more mods than I knew what to do with anyway making it seem pointless.  So I quit that game, and tried scavenger in standard, which proved to be more fun and felt more useful.  Especially the ability to store all those mods from the special levels, which tend to be early in the game, until I was ready to build things with them and WK2.  It felt like I was definitely getting advantages I could not get any other way... no other character gets real benefit from an A modded shotgun (and, yes, the Cerberus boots were easier to make, I even A modded them).  Is it great?  Not at all... but it works better if you play to it instead of trying to play something its not.  This isn't a no-brainer master... you need to work the role, otherwise it's not going to be fun (or seem to work in any way).  Everything should lead towards your planned goal, accepting that you'll be passing on things that might have made your life easier, simply because that's not the role you're playing.
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SageAcrin

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #124 on: April 09, 2013, 14:43 »

If it's only good for rapid setups-which, correct me if I'm wrong, is basically what you're saying?-then doesn't it have to compete with Catseye, Ammochain and Entrenchment, the Rapid-specific skills?

Ammochain is very close to giving you a Nanomanufacture Ammo for any chain fire gun you pick, and Cateye...Cateye is basically great, as far as I can tell, granting you an entirely unreproduceable and reasonably powerful benefit that's going to be, at best, subjective to compete with.

So it has to compete with 30% resistance to all attack types while Chain firing, which is on the same class. Someone who's tried that might be able to give a better opinion of how it works out than I(I tend to forget Chain Fire exists, sadly, and haven't gotten around to that skill build yet, so it's a bit of a blank.), but Entrenchment sounds better to me, on paper. (Wide spread and strong resistance is really good, look at Malicious Blades/Berserker.)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 14:46 by SageAcrin »
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LuckyDee

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #125 on: April 09, 2013, 23:59 »

Although most of what's been said makes perfect sense, I still don't agree that MSc doesn't work as a pistol build: with EE2 required for the master, access to both SOG and SOB (and REL+FIN, for those that want it) and the ability to make a simple pistol into a killing machine (a P2 modded storm bolter, for example). Take another level to get INT2 and you'll be killing most enemies before they step in sight (and propel them back out again if they do).

Currently doing MSc on AA666, mainly to get (close to) Technician Platinum and Heroic Gold (via the Experience Cross); if it works as well as my previous non-master pistol build on A100, I'll get you a proper mortem. Give it a day or three, though :S
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AlterAsc

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #126 on: April 10, 2013, 03:15 »

MSc and pistols are not compatible? Ha! SoG5, SoB5, P3B2 combat pistol (3d6) [26/26]. DG? Unique mods? Unique pistols? Aint nobody have time to use them when you have 3d6+10 damage each shot. Less than 3*6+5, but still A LOT.
About MSc and rapid-fire. Assault chaingun and hyperblaster are your best friends until you take enough levels in SoB. Later assault rifle assembly becomes useless, but hyperblaster always rocks.
The only real loss that MSc suffers is Ber. And when i go for MSc i decide that i'm not playing melee game so mostly i don't care.

MSc doesn't have to compete with anything. Of course MAc is more reliable when it comes to rapid-fire, MSs is better in terms of DPS, and MCe is safer.But they all come with disadvantages, and MSc basically have none except inability to take another master.

About Entrenchment: it's mediocre and low difficulties and quite bad at high difficulties. Ber and MMB give >50% resistance, so a lot of the time damage is reduced to 1.But  +30% is not that good. Like you care that hell barons will deal not 12 but 8 damage. Still too much. And there's also the fact that you have to stand still.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 03:19 by AlterAsc »
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Klear

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #127 on: April 10, 2013, 03:37 »

I agree about entrenchment. I used it a couple of times I played a masterless build and realized it didn't block anything too important, and the bonus might have saved me a couple of HPs, but it was nothing to write home about. More of a "might as well" trait, rather than something to build to.
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SageAcrin

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #128 on: April 10, 2013, 08:57 »

Quote
MSc and pistols are not compatible? Ha! SoG5, SoB5, P3B2 combat pistol (3d6) [26/26]. DG? Unique mods? Unique pistols? Aint nobody have time to use them when you have 3d6+10 damage each shot. Less than 3*6+5, but still A LOT.

That's also the best modding assembly, though.

Pretty much everything is a drop from that, and there's no guarantee you'll see a Combat Pistol on a run(or that you won't be able to mod it that fully, for that matter. Or at least, get the Ps, which are what really matters.).

This reminds me that I don't really know the rules for when and where you can stack standard mods, though. It'd help if I did at points.

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But they all come with disadvantages, and MSc basically have none except inability to take another master.

And the part where you lose Triggerhappy.

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But  +30% is not that good. Like you care that hell barons will deal not 12 but 8 damage. Still too much. And there's also the fact that you have to stand still.

I'm pretty sure that Protection kicks in after resists (And I think it kicks in after shotgun falloff damage reduction, too. Hard to be absolutely certain, of course.).

So, 12 reduced to 8 and then having 4 protection applied is pretty different from 12 and then 4 protection applied. It looks a lot more competitive then.

Having said that, yeah, I don't know about the standing still thing. Using it correctly seems difficult. It may not even be a high enough boost, even with that, to justify bothering-it's certainly not high enough to just stand and shoot groups of enemies, your armor will get torn up and it really won't be any different from 12-30% then...

I can't say it seems great on paper.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 09:00 by SageAcrin »
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LuckyDee

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #129 on: April 10, 2013, 09:06 »

there's no guarantee you'll see a Combat Pistol on a run

Doesn't matter. A standard issue pistol transformed into a storm bolter turns into a handheld doomsday device when backed by those stats.
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ZicherCZ

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #130 on: April 10, 2013, 09:10 »

I'm pretty sure that Protection kicks in after resists (And I think it kicks in after shotgun falloff damage reduction, too. Hard to be absolutely certain, of course.).
True, at least according to the wiki.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #131 on: April 10, 2013, 10:11 »

Yes, it's true that protection kicks after resistances and resistances from different sources are addictive. That's why as example i chose baron as there's no normal armors that give you resistance to acid.
Actually to be fair while wearing fireproof red armor and chain-firing with MEn you could care less about M,V and R. But you can do the same with normal red and MMB.
And as you noticed there's also armor damage problem.
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Pretty much everything is a drop from that, and there's no guarantee you'll see a Combat Pistol on a run(or that you won't be able to mod it that fully, for that matter. Or at least, get the Ps, which are what really matters.).
Yeah, combat pistol is not guaranteed but it's relatively common. You're pretty much bound to get in Ao100 and in normal game basic pistol will suffice. Power and bulk mods are not really a problem for MSc build. There's also storm bolter, which i never assemble coz don't like but they say it's good.
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And the part where you lose Triggerhappy.
I don't see it as a much of a problem. I used plasma rifle, chaingun, hyperblaster without TH and was perfectly satisfied. If you want to fire more shots per second you can take Fin which is universal.
I'm not saying that TH is useless ofc, it's just the real power lies in SoB.
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SageAcrin

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #132 on: April 10, 2013, 10:25 »

Quote
Doesn't matter. A standard issue pistol transformed into a storm bolter turns into a handheld doomsday device when backed by those stats.

I don't think you can mod a Storm Bolter at all. (There is in fact a topic where Kornell said this recently, IIRC?) So the usual "Just slap a A/S on it to mitigate accuracy" doesn't work as well.

Storm Bolters gain +3.5 on average with Sharpshooter, and benefit reasonably well from Eagle Eye. A SoG5/SoB5/EE2/3 build will eventually outclass a Sharpshooter one reliably, but that's closer to L20 than L15, and the Sharpshooter build would have been able to build some defensive stats with their saved points in that time, so it isn't even entirely one-sided even then. Sharpshooter's reqs of relevant-to-pistol-build skills really help out that comparison, here.

And it's not especially hard to build a Storm Bolter without Scavenger.

I'm not arguing that at extreme levels(20+) a Scavenger Build won't outclass a Sharpshooter build. It will, eventually. It just takes a very long time, and by that point you're probably in pretty good control of the game, from what I've seen.

Quote
I'm not saying that TH is useless ofc, it's just the real power lies in SoB.

Well, I can't argue that. SoB is definitely the more important skill.
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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #133 on: April 10, 2013, 11:19 »

I don't think you can mod a Storm Bolter at all. (There is in fact a topic where Kornell said this recently, IIRC?)

Yeah, I actually had the audacity to log a bug report for that. My bad.

closer to L20 than L15

Bear in mind that one of the assumptions in my argument was that MSc only finds its true use in A100/AA666 games. In that case, the worries about levels after the first 10 kinda fade into the background. On my current run, I think I'm about level 18 with SOG 5, SOB 3 and EE 3 and...

...it's not especially hard to build a Storm Bolter without Scavenger.

My point exactly. Screw TH, screw DG, DIY a storm bolter from the pistol your superiors gave you and wreak havoc.

Having said all this: doing the run I'm doing now, I'm starting to agree with Nick that MSc needs some change. If this is what it is, chances of me ever doing another MSc again after I have all the Techinician Badges are slim to none. And even for those, MSc isn't all the help I had hoped it to be. What the hell do I need 4 sniper mods in 50 levels for??
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SageAcrin

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #134 on: April 10, 2013, 11:49 »

I suppose I ought to come up with a short list of what I, as an entirely new random player with an okay enough record now to comment on stuff(maybe), have seen as weirdly imbalanced. By the game's standards, not my standards of balance, that is.

You see, complaining about intended imbalance is right out. Shotguns might be the better weapons overall in the game, but that seems known and intended(See the various differences in Angel difficulty commentary).

So, given a system of intended imbalance, only two types of things are worth commenting on. Those that would dominate the entire spectrum of builds, and those that would never be used. (And anything that almost always dominates, or almost never is used, etc.)

Since, if someone will always use something every time it appears, it kills the game being interesting(one optimal build completely dominates the game and everything else becomes challenge runs-except for those challenge runs that allow the optimal build, of course.), and if they never would use it, it's a waste of space.

For the former category, the only example of this seems to be Dragonslayer, and Dragonslayer is...a standard Roguelike conciet of the ultra-hidden weapon being best, so I can skip it on that grounds. People have talked way too much about it anyways, from what I saw skimming the forums before posting.

So, here's the stuff that struck me as bad enough to see little or no use, just from the on-paper. Obviously, I am bringing these up for discussion, not trying to just toss my opinion around. I've done some similar assessments on ToME forums, with suggestions people usually liked, so it's worth a try here, I think.

Talents:

-Survivalist.

Classic case of a win-more skill-if you're nulling damage to 1 constantly, nulling it to 0 isn't going to be that much different, and if you're not, the skill does very little. Allowing you to overheal on Medkits only matters if your inventory is full...and if it's full, you're either hoarding a whole lot of ammo, or have half a dozen to a dozen medkits, depending on the build. Or things you consider as valuable as Medkits.

If you're in the situation where this is optimal-you're taking a lot of 1 damage and have a ton of Medkits so you just want to use the ones on the floor instead of picking them up-you're in extremely good shape anyways. If you're not, the skill does nothing. And I question if the skill is actually better at saving you HP/Armor than a single level of Hellrunner(to say nothing of the fact that it seals off Dodgemaster-a strong tanking build with that on it would be very, very hard to kill.).

Oh, and if I read it correctly, Large Medkits heal you for 50% of your life or to 100%, whichever is better, with Survivalist. A heavy tank build, even on N!, only very rarely is going to lose 50%+ of its life in a single action(Or, rather, it can very easily do this, but you're likely to die if you let this happen commonly-with good play, it's very rare.), so it's more optimal to save Large Medkits until you actually need the heal than it is to overheal with them as a defensive buffer.

The first thought I have for this skill is 10-15% damage resistance, or 20-25% in a few areas(Maybe Plasma/Acid/Fire, since it's easy to imagine a survivalist type somehow living through large explosions. This is proper FPS/action movie thinking, right?). This makes it grant a unique tanking advantage, and makes it more likely that the first advantage(the nulling 1 damage to 0) will actually be relevant.

Of course, it's basically a blank slate as it is, so adding any advantage, or strengthening the ones that are there(Say, having it null damage randomly that is above 1, at a rate of (1/(N+1)) where N is the damage-so, null 1 50% of the time, null 2 33% of the time, etc.) would work too.

Juggler:

Not actually imbalanced per se, but, IIRC, I've seen discussions about how this ability is much better for the heavily spoiled player that digs through config files than it is for the average player.

Honestly, the answer seems simple to me. Make it two levels, make the first level grant N% speed to all equipment changes(weapon, armor, prepared item, etc.) and make swapping to the prepped weapon take 0.1 seconds(like it does now), and make the second grant N% more.

0.66/0.33 for swaps or 0.5/0.1 both seem reasonable to me. Depends on how good you want it to be. Being able to swap armor faster would make up somewhat for the loss in weapon flexibility, and it functions much more sensibly.

-Scavenger, Entrenchment

See above discussion. I'd be interested to see if anyone defends Entrenchment. Scavenger arguably doesn't belong anyways, on the grounds that anyone going for Assemblies will care about it anyways-so it effectively can function as a challenge run in and of its self, with a kind of long term achievement as the goal.

As I mentioned, Scavenger being able to mod all uniques once(Or even being able to mod them into basic assemblies) would increase the niche of the build-it would go from a rapid fire to a potential all-rounder. Still probably better at rapid fire than most things, though basic assemblies could be randomly funny. (Plasmatic Shrapnel Jackhammer.) And at least picking up a high end unique pistol(Like Cleric) would make them clearly the best user of it.

Entrenchment just seems like a case of needing more damage resistance. As mentioned, the reason that things like Malicious Blades work is because you're getting such good resistance off of it. Standing still is a pretty large downside, much like having to operate in melee is a downside for Berserker/Malicious Blades(well, Blades doesn't make you, but the skills leading up to it make it hard to avoid.).

-Gun Kata

I'm a little reluctant on this, because I have seen defense of it. I just can't entirely get why. The main upside seems to be the automatic reloads(0.1 shots after a dodge is nice, but SoG3 gives 0.4.), but with cutting out SoB, the damage potential is lower than other pistol builds even counting in the saved reload time, long term. You might be able to balance that out with specific setups, but the flipside is that you can balance out the requirement of reloading repeatedly with specific setups too(like just Bulking up your Pistols some.).

And the main time it's beneficial is the situation you least want to be in, again-in the open, being shot at long enough for both repeated dodges to be required and repeated reloads to be necessary.

This is less me saying the skill is useless, and more wondering what it does that, say, SoG3 and a few levels in Reloader wouldn't. And given its lack of SoG req, and the fact that SoG is very important for pistol builds, it seems like a late pickup at best...and late means that it's having to deal with iffy to dodge enemies like Mancubi. I dunno, it just seems a bit weak given how focused it is.

Weapons/Armor/etc.:

-Mjollnir

Haven't actually gotten this yet. Wiki claims it's a weapon that can only appear later than a Chainsaw, does less damage than a decently modded Combat Knife, and...that's it? Is the wiki missing some trait here like that it boomerangs when thrown? Even with that it might be questionable at 1-15 damage range. Regardless, if it doesn't boomerang, it probably should. :)

-Subtle Knife

3d5 is, again, kinda questionable, and for some reason the ability, despite being fairly similar to the Arena Master's Staff, takes MHP. I don't see a reason why. This is, at least, a bit better than a Combat Knife(...though it's oddly close to a heavily modded Combat Knife.), though, so it has some vague use for Malicious Blades builds. That ability doesn't really need to take MHP though, that I can see.

-Demolition Ammo

Another one I have to trust the Wiki on(There's only so fast I can get everything in the game.). It says, if I read it right, that it converts the damage of the weapon it's installed into to (Original Dice+2)d2 and makes it deal damage in a blast radius of 1.

I think the only times that actually nets higher damage are with a Combat Pistol and a Chaingun, and in both cases it's basically negligably better. Many times, that seems way worse. And radius blast normal shots can be self harming as well, making it a rather weirdly mediocre mod considering how good the other Master Assemblies are.

Considering that it takes four mods, wouldn't something more like (Original Dice+2)d(half original sides, rounded up) make more sense? It only impacts 10MM, and considering that a Firestorm, a Power and two Technical are involved, that seems more the pace of the investment involved.

Sure, you can make a really amazing 3d4 rad 1 Chaingun then, but how often are you going to want that over a Plasma Rifle with heavy mods? It's got some advantages and some disadvantages as well, it seems like. And if that's too good, you can always make it round down instead(which mostly makes it good for Combat Pistols and Chainguns, again, but at least a 3d3 Chaingun is worth mentioning.).

-Frag Shotgun

I'm not sure why there's a Unique Combat Shotgun that uses funny ammo, but it crunches enough of that funny ammo so that it's not more ammo efficient(A stack of shotgun shells is 30 and a Combat Shotgun eats one at a time, this eats four of 10MM, and they show up in 100 stacks. It's not even that much more efficient on a by-enemy-drop basis, since you get 140~ 10MM from a Commander and 30~ shells from a Sergeant), it doesn't do more damage, it hits the same cone, etc.

Oh, and it's 1.5s firing speed. For some mysterious reason. This seems like a good candidate for worst weapon in the game, and it's even unique so you can't mod it. At least you can make a Combat Shotgun into a Tactical, so it's better in every way, then. This weapon confuses me; I don't even know where to begin with it.

-Combat Translocator

Not actually a concept I dislike, but it consumes ten cells a shot(higher than a Plasma Rifle, two thirds that of a Tristar Blaster!) and randomly phases enemies.

The funny answer that comes to mind is to greatly lower the cells(to be honest, 1 would be okay) and have it function as a homing phase device when it hits enemies. Sending them to the stairs. Where you know where they are and can plan around that.

Of course, if you don't know where the stairs are, or are just trying to get through fast, spraying that around might be a bad idea. Then again, you can figure out where the stairs are pretty fast that way.

Alternatively, just give it an alt fire where you can shoot yourself with it. That might be too good, but it does take a turn to swap to...

-Bullet-Proof Vest

You know, I'm reluctant to list this one because the description its self implies that it's not expected to be worth much.

It's still not worth much, though. It's basically worse than a green armor to me, because I consider the main earlygame threats to not use bullets, so it's basically a worse green armor. And chances are, I'll be able to find a green armor.

So yeah.

It's not really that long of a list for me. There's some debate for some of it, too, surely.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 12:02 by SageAcrin »
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