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Author Topic: Balance suggestions  (Read 52089 times)

Equality

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2013, 04:03 »

make a couple of Ao100 runs (best one ends on 84 level) as a Scavenger. Usually disassembling give me the next:

firestorm (combat pistol)
firestorm (missile launcher)
bulk (combat pistol? don't remember!)
sniper (Grammaton Cleric Beretta)
bulk (minigun)
firestorm (Railgun)
firestorm (laser rifle)
nano (Jackhammer)
bulk
firestorm (nuclear BFG)

it's from last attempt, but previous was very similar. So, mastery looks useless :) Take a good weapon, disassemble it - and drop useless firestorm mod pack. no, thanks :( or RNG hates me?
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skarczew

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2013, 04:39 »

Firestorm needs to be made into something useful, as noted and proposed in the other topics.
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MaiZure

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2013, 05:26 »

Firestorm needs to be made into something useful, as noted and proposed in the other topics.

Such as (u)sing it to convert it in to 2 ammo chains/packs of your choice?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 05:28 by MaiZure »
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2013, 05:45 »

About your runs... I think firestorm and sniper are more common than nano and onyx (IIRC, the wiki says every mods have the same levels/weights... well, I think it's outdated), but I'd say the RNG hates you.
Though, I wouldn't have dissassembled a nuclear BFG. I would have put two firestorm on it and made it a biggest nuclear fucking gun ! (I even think it can be useful in some desesparate situations).
At least, you'd have used some of thoses...

Quote
Such as (u)sing it to convert it in to 2 ammo chains/packs of your choice?

I think a mod should just mod weapons. not pop medkits, gib every corpses on level, or create walls :p

But y, firestorm seems so much useless atm :(
Maybe make it increase damages (e.g. equivalent of 2 power mods, using only one slot. Not very original, but useful. err... maybe not, if it gives you knockback on your beloved weapon ;p)
Or instead of increasing ammo shot, just reduce firing time ? Well, not very original either ^^ but would keep the concept of firing faster, without making it useless. T mods are great on weapons, so a "big T mod" should be even better, right ?

Also, I think it should have some use on other weapons. currently, I think increasing radius of explosives weapons is usually a malus rather than an improvement, so, I would replace / pair this with a significant damage increase.
I'd also make it useful at least on shottys. it could increase damages, reduce armor penality to x1 and x0 for F1 and F2, or even reduce damage reduction with distance.. (but this suits WAY more to sniper mod. Hey, why did nobody think to this before for sniper on shottys ? isn't it a good idea ?)

On melee weapons... I don't know if it should work... and don't think it would be much useful anyway (since current melee = chainsaw -> artifact, and modding the chainsaw isn't really necessary)
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tylor

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2013, 06:31 »

May be just Firestorm x non-auto/explosive = more knockback? +50% knockback or so.
Or - +50% knockback for pistols, enabled knockback for melee, wider fire cone for shotguns.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 06:34 by tylor »
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2013, 06:41 »

Actually, my immediate idea about firestorm was allowing to apply it on armor for a +30% fire protection O.o
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2013, 07:11 »

Making it usable on armor could indeed be a good idea, but atm, it clearly seems too weak on weapons, so why not buff this aspect too ?

The goal is just to make it worth being a rare mod. For the moment, nano is clearly way superior to every other mods (onyx is great, and sniper is good, but they don't offer as much choice. also, 2nd onyx is often useless).
Firestorm is just... well, needing rework ^^
What do you think of making it a "double P or T" mod ? (or a "P+T") on rapid fire ? and giving it some use on shotguns ?

@Tylor
I think knockback on rapid fire or melee weapons would be negative in both cases.
I like the idea of a wider shotgun cone, but I'm not sure it would be more useful than colatteral-damaging either :)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 07:14 by Evilpotatoe »
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #67 on: March 13, 2013, 08:08 »

Anyway, I think we'd need more opinions, to get really constructive results (i.e. not just improve firestorm, but also rework bad balanced assemblies, items, traits, enemies...).
I don't have much skills in organization, but what about creating a place for balance discussion ? A single forum thread won't be enough, so what should it be ? Simple separates posts here ? A dedicated forum section ? Online shared spreadsheets ? "Tickets" on some tool like Mantis or Redmine ?
All we'd need, finally, is to have a place with separate discussions for every under/overpowered thing, and have it easily readable / commentable, so that everyone can give his opinion, and learn about the other's, so this forum might be enough... though, a dedicated place would be better, since forums are quite messy.

Having played some very different games, like Hengband, blizzard's RTS, or DotA, I must say I HATE imbalance by now.
e.g., in Hengband, 95%, or 99% of found stuff is plain useless... it took me time to realize it, but it's a huge problem, which completely cripple's gameplay, and makes it too repetitive, while in DotA, every hero or item can impact a game's issue (even if there's some I never use).
Of course, DoomRL's is way more interesting and balanced than Hengband, but I think many thing could be improved with a little step back, to look at the big picture, and a few good ideas to correct it's weaknesses...
For me, the hardest part is not to correct, but to spot those weaknesses.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2013, 08:14 »

Problem is that this discussion is way too late in the dev cycle. We'll have to wait for the 0.9.9.7 release that is almost imminent. Afterwards the next release should be lot earlier than the last, so it will be a perfect moment to talk about balance :)
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Kornel Kisielewicz

Fanta Hege

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2013, 09:48 »

You know firestorm is kind of "EH" on the mods compared to the other rares.

Buffing it on weapons though is pretty hard, in my opinion it is pretty nice on rapid fire.. But otherwise? really situational, you rarely want more splash as it destroys items.
Few ideas though:
-On Rapid fires, make it so that the extra shots provided by firestorm are not drawn from the weapons clip. If you're gonna shoot a bigger volley, why not get a bit of extra on top? Simple, ammo efficient and desirable.
-On Explosive: Make it the damage buffer same way that the bulk mod effects meelee weapons. Give more raw power on them. Make it a real storm.
-It could also have some sort of effects on pistols and shotguns? It could give double shotguns more pellets per shot, this would make it really desirable for a double shotty user. +1 additional spread on other shotguns? No idea here really.
No idea how it should effect pistols though. Maybe make it a combination of tech and power mod for pistols or something in same way? Though it could be bit OP for pistols then.

The fire resistance on armors sounds like a lovely idea. Make it effect boots too so we can get some more out of plasteels? :P
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tylor

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2013, 14:52 »

I think knockback on rapid fire or melee weapons would be negative in both cases.
Knockback on NOT rapid fire guns. I.e. pistols. Knockback on melee is more negative thing than not, yes, but who knows, may be someone will find a use for it? :)  Like killing demon.
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skarczew

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2013, 16:04 »

Actually, my immediate idea about firestorm was allowing to apply it on armor for a +30% fire protection O.o
Sounds like taken from my mind:

http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6124.msg53051.html#msg53051

Also some other posts there:
http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,5472.msg44746.html

Quote
Problem is that this discussion is way too late in the dev cycle.
Blah, blah, blah.

I found it in a quite few places on ChaosForge that people complain about it ...for months, if not years.

And you complain about people giving no feedback, nor ideas ...Thou Shalt Read More, God Hand!


...
Having played some very different games, like Hengband, blizzard's RTS, or DotA, I must say I HATE imbalance by now.
I feel the same while playing many games, bro.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 16:11 by skarczew »
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Nick

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #72 on: March 14, 2013, 03:10 »

Too much balance is good for RPG, not for RL. RL just should have "a proper way to response to RNG". To build wise and uneasy plans to solve situations RNG creates, always possible but never easy. No nano? OK, we'll not disassemble this item because it's sorta ammo-saving. And there must be no methods which ALWAYS lead to victory. There must always be place to suddenly change your plans because of bad surprise.
On my second thought, Ammochain should be replaced with Headshot Maestro. "Bursts are for dummies, your tough life had taught you to save ammunition. With first level of this threat, you use 1/2 ammo per volley. With second level, you use 1/3. You already hit the most vulnerable spot so the damage you cause remains the same."
I love to "transmutate" mods with Scavenger. T+T+Rocket Launcher or T+A+Pistol never brought me another T or A yet. Am I that lucky or it's a RNG limitation to always give a mod which IS NOT included in the assembly scheme? If not, it should be. And maybe disassembling of ALL rare/unique items is good, but it requires to nerf the entire scheme. 50% you'll get another "related" item instead of a mod (Rare or Assembled from Unique and Common from Rare, for example, Combat Pistol from Trigun, Ripper from Longinus Spear, Plasma Rifle from Nuclear Plasma Rifle, Red Armor from Cybernetic Armor etc) and 50% a mod with current weights.
About Firestorm, I suggest to allow it for Plasma Shrapnel. It will buff both Sniper and Firestorm a bit. A wall of plasma shots and a wall of plasma shots with radius 1 are very different things because most enemies will get caught by two adjacent shots. Maybe also Demolition Ammo should not be THAT weak for a Master Assembly.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #73 on: March 14, 2013, 03:21 »

Too much balance is good for RPG, not for RL. RL just should have "a proper way to response to RNG". To build wise and uneasy plans to solve situations RNG creates, always possible but never easy. No nano? OK, we'll not disassemble this item because it's sorta ammo-saving. And there must be no methods which ALWAYS lead to victory. There must always be place to suddenly change your plans because of bad surprise.
QFT.
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Nick

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #74 on: March 14, 2013, 04:33 »

If you decide to nerf nano (I hope you'll NEVER do!!!) I suggest to limit Nanomanufacture to Plasma/Laser rifles (in other words, non-BFG with Plasma damage type), while common Nano applies on everything as usual. Also, Nano + Nuclear must instantly cause the Nanomanufacture effect without full assembly. Let's call the nerfed Nanomanufacture kinda "Nanoreactor" or "Cold Fusion Reactor". Than again, I hope you'll never do it but if life force you, you'll do it this way.
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