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Author Topic: Balance suggestions  (Read 71243 times)

Nick

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #105 on: April 08, 2013, 10:30 »

Sorry... Looks like I've said something wrong again :(
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LuckyDee

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #106 on: April 08, 2013, 11:11 »

Sorry... Looks like I've said something wrong again :(

No such thing, your idea just seems far too complicated. What is it exactly that you want to change about Scavenger? In words, I mean, not in game terms.
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Nick

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #107 on: April 08, 2013, 11:28 »

To expand it's power onto ALL rare and unique stuff, not ranged weapons only. And to do it without flooding the player with tons of cheap mod packs.
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LuckyDee

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #108 on: April 08, 2013, 12:19 »

Don't underestimate the use of 'cheap' mod packs.

Also, put the trait in perspective: unlike all other masters, Scavenger doesn't block any basic traits, allowing you to apply it to just about any build you want. I think that's very much worth not being able to disassemble any- and everything that comes in your path. I'd have to give it a try to be sure - was planning to do an MSc A100 some time soon anyway - but I'm betting the combination of traits and addtional mods makes for a pretty feisty techie.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 13:14 by LuckyDee »
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Nick

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #109 on: April 08, 2013, 12:29 »

By "cheap" I mean "given for almost free". If EVERYTHING can be disassembled for a mod pack, Scavenger will be even more imbalanced than Ammochain. That's why I've written that table. I want to have more disassembly abilities but I don't want to ruin all the fun by having 2-3 Nano packs for free every time I play as a Tech.
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LuckyDee

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #110 on: April 08, 2013, 12:40 »

Hmmm... I'm kinda lost now. On the one hand you say you want to be able to disassemble more stuff:

To expand it's power onto ALL rare and unique stuff, not ranged weapons only.

...while on the other you recognize that this will severely tilt the balance:

If EVERYTHING can be disassembled for a mod pack, Scavenger will be even more imbalanced than Ammochain.

And your table does indeed restrict what mods you'd get, but not the number of mods, thus force-feeding you more than you could ever hope to use. Assuming that Scavenger is only really useful/used on A100 and AA666, and bearing in mind the huge number of mods you'll already run into just scattered around the levels, plus the fact that you have access to all basic traits, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that bumping Scavenger any further would really screw up the game.

Mind you, I'm just one player, and not a very good one to boot. Maybe others share your view.
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Nick

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #111 on: April 08, 2013, 12:47 »

Look at the table. There are few new modpack sources. Most new sources give modpacks very rarely but commonly give weird and useful stuff. Most modpack sources in the list are existing (but act a bit different than I suggest).
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LuckyDee

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #112 on: April 08, 2013, 13:16 »

Most new sources give modpacks very rarely but commonly give weird and useful stuff.

Whether the benefit comes in the form of a mod pack or of something else, it's still a benefit, which I think MSc offers more than enough. I don't think you're going to convince me.
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Nick

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #113 on: April 08, 2013, 13:33 »

...and I don't even argue with THIS part :) Because if you're right, it can be nerfed somewhere else. For example, by adding also ammopack/armorbonus drop which is way less useful. I didn't even tried to think about the overall balance, I've concentrated on the local one. This time, I leave the overall balance to others.
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #114 on: April 08, 2013, 14:14 »

Personally, I'd like scavenger to be able to scavenge melee weapons and armors. Maybe not artifacts... looks like a blasphemy to me :) but for once, I'd be glad to get a chainsaw :D !!

I don't think your table is balanced at all, but there is ideas I like. Beeing able to disassemble an armor to get an envirosuit could be cool. Since armors should give protective items, why not also find armor shards, or maybe even health bonus (or invu/soul/invi globes...) ?


In Ao100+, we find way too much firestorm & snipers, but it's a particular case, even if I never play MSc anymore outside of thoses.
The fact that firestorm sucks  is a real problem. Except for (bad) assemblies, I think a T mod is always better, which makes this mod pretty useless.

I think beeing able to disassemble an exotic to a chosen mod could be good. You don't find that much exotics in a normal game, and scrapping your BFG and missile launcher to get shitty mods is just... well, it's the reason why I won't go scavenger again in a normal game. Maybe it should cost another mod to choose what you get, but not beeing able to find a simple bulk or agility when needed is so annoying... really makes you wonder why you went scavenger.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #115 on: April 08, 2013, 14:32 »

Disassembling chainsaw makes some sense, but disassembling cleaver or spear gives you what? Blade and handle?
Making mod depend on a category would ruin your fun a bit. Because that's just like finding that mod. Random is more fun i believe.
My opinion? Don't improve MSc, improve F and S mods. And preferably extend O to weapons as well.
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SageAcrin

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #116 on: April 08, 2013, 15:00 »

Quote
Also, put the trait in perspective: unlike all other masters, Scavenger doesn't block any basic traits, allowing you to apply it to just about any build you want.

This is true, but with it blocking Dualgunner, Berserker and Triggerhappy, the only weapon specific skill it doesn't block is...Shottyman.

Which isn't incredibly important to the playstyle as those other three skills are anyways, so you can just skip it if you wanted anyways.

And then, of course, you don't get a straight up damage boost Master skill.

Basically Scavenger, unlike most mastery skills, makes you vaguely bad at dealing...damage, in general, from the one run I've done with it(Ao100 Normal, cleared that.). In exchange, you get more mods, but in general it's one or two rare mods a run tops. At least, based on Ao100, which is more likely to give rare mods than a normal run, it seems like.

And a lot of the best assemblies take rare mods. Especially ones that create playstyle defining weaponry(Nano types...mostly Nano types really, though I think the BFG variants can certainly define a few floors very explosively.).

I can't say that I feel it's totally useless (that nod goes to Survivalist, which seems like it would only save you more than 50 HP a game if you were such a tank that you don't actually need it to clear anyways) but I wouldn't want to take it outside of Ao100(where, at least, the fact that it doesn't block any base traits means that your 15+ levels are better.), or Ao666 I suppose. And it mostly felt like I was using it for laughs there, wouldn't take it on a higher mode than HNTR honestly.

Honestly, seems easiest just to rename it(Techhead or something) and give it the added effect of allowing all (all non-artifact?) items one mod. That way you get more common mods, and always will have something to do with them, no matter what your luck is, and it defines the skill as a generalist more.

I really do like the idea of Firestorm adding fire resistance to armor and Sniper narrowing a shotgun's spread(or maybe lowering its falloff damage penalty%, so that you don't get Doubles going 15 squares suddenly.), incidentally.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 15:47 by SageAcrin »
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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #117 on: April 08, 2013, 15:29 »

Disassembling chainsaw makes some sense, but disassembling cleaver or spear gives you what? Blade and handle?
Yeah come on let's slowly change DoomRL into Vagrant Story! Who's with me?! :P
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LuckyDee

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #118 on: April 08, 2013, 23:21 »

I agree with just about everything you say; like I mentioned before, I wouldn't play Scavenger in a 24 level game either, and even in an A100+ game, it's not my first choice - I'd only take it to get some Technician Badges.

This however:
This is true, but with it blocking Dualgunner, Berserker and Triggerhappy, the only weapon specific skill it doesn't block is...Shottyman. Which isn't incredibly important to the playstyle as those other three skills are anyways

is not quite true. I'll grant you that playing melee without BER (or MMB to compensate) is going to be a pain in the ass, but a pistol build without DG is no problem whatsoever, and whenever I play a rapidfire build I tend to take only the minimum number of levels in TH, since they waste a lot of ammo (SOB+EE(+possibly FIN) combined generally do enough damage to not need the extra bullet/cell. My experience with rapid fire is minimal, though, maybe a more seasoned player feels the need to comment on this.
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Nick

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #119 on: April 09, 2013, 01:28 »

Disassembling chainsaw makes some sense, but disassembling cleaver or spear gives you what? Blade and handle?

...and a permanent character boost from eternal forces, of course! We're talking about weapons able to freeze time and pierce steel!

> the only weapon specific skill it doesn't block is...Shottyman.

Scavenger is my favourite trait on Ao100. Because even if I can't find Nano with it, I usually get the Super Shotgun. And Super Shotgun + Shottyman + P + S + P = "Pizdets Vsemu (F**kin' End to Everything)" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU-100#Development. And armed with Pizdets Vsemu weapon class for a cheap pair of shotgun shells, I can solve the ammo-starving trouble in most cases. Of course, Super Shotgun + P + P + N + P is kinda insta-win but without Nano, PSP is OK.
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