Chaosforge Forum

  • March 29, 2024, 08:05
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.



Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 13

Author Topic: Balance suggestions  (Read 71273 times)

AlterAsc

  • Supporter
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 399
    • View Profile
Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #135 on: April 10, 2013, 12:16 »

My opinion on your notes and items in reversed order:
Bullet-Proof Vest: it has small advantage over green armor - it has no movespeed penalty. Not like -5% on green is noticable though.
Translocator, Subtle knife, Mjolnir: uniques are unique. They're not supposed to be always better. They are unique.
Frag Shotgun: treat it another way: you have spare space and no shells to fill it with so you take this and 10mm ammo. So if suddenly you're out of shells, you still can fight.
Demolition armor: it is more or less okay on pistols. However Fire damage type horribly backfires when you attempt it on chain-gun. Because rapid-fire knockback in DoomRL is a bit messed up, most likely your target will get knocked out of bullet path and a lot of shots miss. Same with trying to use this again groups - first bullets knocks everyone in different direction without you doing much damage.
Scavenger: well, i still believe that it's perfectly okay with problem being the mods.
Survivalist: main problem of this trait is that in DoomRL you need to kill your enemies, not die longer. That's why when you meat 372 revenants somewhere in hell, most players choose build that allows them to kill things faster. Preferably even before enemies shoot.
Logged
(0.9.9.6 - ?) Arch-Vile Chaos Lt. Colonel [26|20|18|16|12|2]

SageAcrin

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 73
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #136 on: April 10, 2013, 12:34 »

Quote
Translocator, Subtle knife, Mjolnir: uniques are unique. They're not supposed to be always better. They are unique.

As mentioned, a weapon that isn't worth anything to use may as well be empty space. If it's linearly worse than everything, there's no point in it existing, except for joke value. Translocator might have joke value, but it could easily have joke value and strategic use at the same time, and if there's a joke in the other two, it goes over my head. (Perhaps Subtle Knife is too subtle for me.)

It's novel to see a bad weapon, once, but after that you just ignore it. Or pick it up and set it down again for the register on your uniques record.

Basically, it's one thing if it's not better than what you have. I'm not saying that Mjolnir and Subtle Knife should compete with even the Butcher's Cleaver, let alone Longinus(which, realistically, most maingame melee builds will use). Just that they should have something that makes them have a theoretical use.

Quote
Frag Shotgun: treat it another way: you have spare space and no shells to fill it with so you take this and 10mm ammo. So if suddenly you're out of shells, you still can fight.

Your primary weapon is probably going to do more damage than a Frag Shotgun is, though, thanks to the incredibly long 1.5s shot speed. Even a Combat Shotgun's pump only takes 0.2, so it takes 1.2 per shot and is more controllable. And that's a common weapon.

Also, the question of why you're heavily running shotguns enough to run out of ammo for them a lot, while still holding tons of 10mm in stock, does come to mind. Learning to manage and balance your ammo better would be much better than running a Frag Shotgun.

Quote
Survivalist: main problem of this trait is that in DoomRL you need to kill your enemies, not die longer. That's why when you meat 372 revenants somewhere in hell, most players choose build that allows them to kill things faster. Preferably even before enemies shoot.

That's more of a question of what's effective when, which is really more of a general system balance question than one of that skill in particular...which means that it's basically out of the scope of Survivalist. Retooling Survivalist probably shouldn't involve retooling the entire armor/resistance system.

I admit, tanking is sort of a weird topic in DoomRL, but I don't think it's totally useless. Just not as good as other builds.

The main difference is that a heavily mobility oriented build keeps you in control more often(generally more valuable), a heavy damage build ends combat faster(generally more valuable), and a heavy defensive build raises the amount of time you can survive when you're neither in control, nor can damage enemies fast enough to drop them.

Generally less valuable...but not worthless. Sometimes you just go down a stairs, hit a group of two Archviles and four Hell Barons, and your Phase Device lands you in a dangerous spot too. Or maybe the entire level is a mess floor and it's just very difficult to avoid some damage. That sort of time is where two/three layers of TaN can slow down a lot of the damage you take, meaning that you'll be less likely to run out of healing on the floor, and more likely to be able to take valuable powerups with you to start the next floor, which in turn means you're more in control for the next, floor, etc.

The point I'm making is that Survivalist adds very little to that kind of insurance effect. So it's basically not helping with what I see as the advantage of tank builds.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 12:49 by SageAcrin »
Logged
Arch-Vile Brigadier General, 25|18|15|7|1|1 (0.9.9.7)
(10k enemies/65~ Cyberdemons from Cyberdemon, 1 Diamond from Mjr. General)

AlterAsc

  • Supporter
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 399
    • View Profile
Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #137 on: April 10, 2013, 12:44 »

Well, they're better than combat knife. And that's what you get in Ao100.

As for Frag shotgun - let's say you're doing AoSh UV/100% and want to do maximum number of special levels. There's a limited amount of shells in the game. Even if you take them all, sometimes you can still have free space. So you fill it with Frag Shotgun and 10mm. If you find them more shells you throw some 10mm away to take it.Seems obvious to me.
Logged
(0.9.9.6 - ?) Arch-Vile Chaos Lt. Colonel [26|20|18|16|12|2]

LuckyDee

  • Sound Wizard
  • Grand Inquisitor
  • General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1516
  • High Caliber Consecrator
    • View Profile
    • LuckyDeeIndustries
Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #138 on: April 10, 2013, 12:52 »

I saw your post and don't have time to really dig into it, at the moment - but I will, looks good - but here's some quick thoughts:

-Scavenger

I actually really like the idea of this trait. From what I've seen so far though, the options for obtaining mods should indeed be better, possibly at the cost of a couple of basic traits being made unavailable.

-Gun Kata

What makes GK count is the fact that you fire fast, reload fast upon killing and not get shot. Ok, against large numbers, trouble will arise, but one on one this trait really shines. Doing a no-invul Cyberdemon's head on AoMr with this trait is a blast.

I'll get back to you on this a.s.a.p., good stuff.
Logged
[0.9.9.7G] Current: Hell Knight 1st Lieutenant [20/12/4/0/0/0]
High: Arch-Vile Lt. Colonel [25/21/12/2/1/0]

SageAcrin

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 73
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #139 on: April 10, 2013, 13:05 »

Quote
Well, they're better than combat knife. And that's what you get in Ao100.

Why not use 8d2 Chainswords, instead? (Never mind that Chainsaws do show up randomly.)

Those don't even take Whizkid. The higher damage average on a Chainsword(12 vs Subtle Knife's 9 and Mjollnir's 8) makes up for Subtle Knife's Plasma for the most part. Mjollnir's not even a special element, IIRC.

I think even a Piercing Blade does more(3d5, 9 average, piercing so totally ignores armor).

Quote
As for Frag shotgun - let's say you're doing AoSh UV/100% and want to do maximum number of special levels. There's a limited amount of shells in the game. Even if you take them all, sometimes you can still have free space. So you fill it with Frag Shotgun and 10mm. If you find them more shells you throw some 10mm away to take it.Seems obvious to me.

I think if a Frag Shotgun(Or Plasma Shotgun, as they do the same thing, much better, with Power Cells, or a Nano-Shrapnel) was remotely required to do 100%/UV/Conquerer/AoSh, I would be incredibly surprised.

For starters, Archviles can be used to farm shotgun shells.

For another thing, I have a mortem of doing 97%/AoS/UV run(I didn't have enough Cells to shoot through The Wall, which was the only thing I used that Plasma Shotgun for-dumped it after, it was a MAD build. That's why it's not 100%... :( ). From that mortem;

    [b] shotgun shell (x50)
    [c] shotgun shell (x50)
    [d] shotgun shell (x50)
    [e] shotgun shell (x50)
    [f] shotgun shell (x50)
    [g] shotgun shell (x25)
    [h] shotgun shell (x50)
    [i] shotgun shell (x50)
    [j] shotgun shell (x50)

I admittedly used an Elephant Gun most of the time, which is more ammo efficient than your average Double Shotgun, but I would be rather surprised if there was over 400 shells worth of enemies in the areas I skipped, with no replenishment at all at any point. I know Limbo/Mortuary can get nasty, but that's a hard sell.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 13:17 by SageAcrin »
Logged
Arch-Vile Brigadier General, 25|18|15|7|1|1 (0.9.9.7)
(10k enemies/65~ Cyberdemons from Cyberdemon, 1 Diamond from Mjr. General)

Matt_S

  • Elder
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 394
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #140 on: April 10, 2013, 13:09 »

Mjollnir is quite a bit of an oddball with its damage.  It does boomerang, though.  Can't say I'd choose it over any other melee weapon except maybe a combat knife though.  It might have some utility as a secondary weapon in AoB for corner-throwing fun or something.

Does the Subtle Knife's BFG Plasma damage mean it gibs things that you kill with it?
Logged

SageAcrin

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 73
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #141 on: April 10, 2013, 13:16 »

Quote
Does the Subtle Knife's BFG Plasma damage mean it gibs things that you kill with it?

Well, it's not going to be Longinus about it-it's not likely to do more than 50 damage tops, even with Berserk and a ton of Brute, so it's no guaranteed gib. (You have to do 200% of the monster's max health to gib it on kill, with a plasma weapon, according to the wiki. 400% with most melee.)

But yeah, it's probably better at that than a normal weapon.
Logged
Arch-Vile Brigadier General, 25|18|15|7|1|1 (0.9.9.7)
(10k enemies/65~ Cyberdemons from Cyberdemon, 1 Diamond from Mjr. General)

Nick

  • First Sergeant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 103
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #142 on: April 10, 2013, 13:32 »

And even for those, MSc isn't all the help I had hoped it to be. What the hell do I need 4 sniper mods in 50 levels for??

It's sorta S/F/N balancing question. I've already brought some ideas above. I didn't figure yet how 0.9.9.7 actually works, looks like Alchemy is already there... or I'm that lucky again so RNG gives me "alchemic" mods.

About the Frag Shotgun... I can't say for sure (didn't tried it yet) but it's parameters look so purple. Looks like the only problem with it is the fact it is green.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 13:50 by Nick »
Logged

AlterAsc

  • Supporter
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 399
    • View Profile
Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #143 on: April 10, 2013, 13:52 »

Quote
(Never mind that Chainsaws do show up randomly.)
Not for me.
Never in my DoomRL life i saw random chainsaw or random bfg9000.
As for Frag Shotgun: i'm merely stating that it can be useful. I'm not saying it's an awesome weapon or something.
Logged
(0.9.9.6 - ?) Arch-Vile Chaos Lt. Colonel [26|20|18|16|12|2]

Evilpotatoe

  • Backer
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
  • Lost Soul corpse
    • View Profile
Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #144 on: April 10, 2013, 17:14 »

I agree with most of your points. Nothing should be fully useless, nor OP

New melee weapons :
everyone knows melee was too weak, and needed a buff xD
Bah, I love subtle knife, even if I'll probably never use it. Mjollnir... well, I guess it's useful for melee with juggler. Juggler needed a buff too, right ?
More seriously, I like the increased number of melee weapons. This looks good, especially good for Ao100+, where chainsaw were quite rare. The fact that melee is OP is another problem.

Demolition ammo
Sucks for other reasons. Costs WK2 and F-mod, but knockbacks everything with 1st bullet... so, AOE can't be used effectively. Also, damages are quite weak & can destroy items...
I guess fire damages can be of some use on a gun... but it's 1 game over 1000.

Frag shotty
Looks good to me, except one point : WTF with firing time ? 7d3 is ok. I can take 2.5 sec to recharge if I need to save my ammo, but 1.5 firing time ??? I don't get it.
Sure, it can be useful, but I think it should be improved. I doubt it would be too good with 1s firing time... not moddable, low damage, 4 shells, long reload and shorter ammo stacks... sure, it has a use, but compared to a Jackhammer... :/)

Combat translocator
I like your suggestions. Spamming translocator shots could be very fun, and I doubt stacking enemies aroud stairs would be much abusable (well, it could improve RL/BFG value significantly, but Ithing it could be a good buff). A secondary fire acting like a phase would need some big drawback (e.g. 3+ seconds firing time, and NOT homing, of course)

Bullet proof vest
Will be useless 80% of the times, but it's not a bad armor in early game (quite good against formers or the player, and doesn't reduce ms).



Also, about masteries, from my point of view :
MSv is useless, for said reasons
MSc is... well, useful to get techies badges, or hope for a few lucky nanos, but probably not goot for the rest (even if it only blocks Ber). Getting only F and S really sucks in non normal games, which seems to be THE place where this mastery could shine.
MGK... is weird. Reloading guns automatically is great, but OTOH, I think it's a weak mastery. As said, it gives nothing particular for what it costs. I'll prefer good mods or MCE to improve my char. Btw, my gun runs are MSh, since I want access to WK

I just never tried MEn or MBD... There are reasons for this :)
Logged
Badges - [26/26/26/22/9/2] - 42/43

LuckyDee

  • Sound Wizard
  • Grand Inquisitor
  • General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1516
  • High Caliber Consecrator
    • View Profile
    • LuckyDeeIndustries
Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #145 on: April 11, 2013, 00:14 »

Not for me.
Never in my DoomRL life i saw random chainsaw or random bfg9000.

Don't know about 0996, but in the A100/AA666 runs I've done on 0997, I've seen a couple of chainsaws and a BFG.
Logged
[0.9.9.7G] Current: Hell Knight 1st Lieutenant [20/12/4/0/0/0]
High: Arch-Vile Lt. Colonel [25/21/12/2/1/0]

Nick

  • First Sergeant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 103
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #146 on: April 11, 2013, 04:30 »

Frag Shotgun can also be an assembly. Chaingun + T + T + A, for example. But as a "purple thing", it can be a part of powerful assemblies, both 10mm and shotgun ones. It bumps it's weak parameters but not too much because assemblies are not free. Demolition Ammo Frag Shotgun will probably be a treasure for any shotgun build, competing with the Jackhammer. Plasmatic Frag Shotgun can be as well.
Just a crazy idea: Dum-dum rifle (I already love the name!) Four 10mm bullets hit the target and if it's gibbed, a wide shotgun blast appears from it's square. It's the parts of exploded bullets which additionally hit other monsters. So shooting nearest zombie in a crowd can kill 2-3 at once.
Logged

Klear

  • Elder
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1319
  • Twisted passages carry the smell of dapperness...
    • View Profile
Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #147 on: April 11, 2013, 05:06 »

Just a crazy idea: Dum-dum rifle (I already love the name!) Four 10mm bullets hit the target and if it's gibbed, a wide shotgun blast appears from it's square. It's the parts of exploded bullets which additionally hit other monsters. So shooting nearest zombie in a crowd can kill 2-3 at once.

...and yourself.
Logged
Arch-Vile Mjr General [24/19/18/8/2] (0.9.9.7)

Quote from: thelaptop
Dude... we need to change your forum handle from "Klear" to "Klear Nukem".

Nick

  • First Sergeant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 103
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #148 on: April 11, 2013, 06:17 »

What make you think the wide shotgun blast can be directed toward player ever? Can't even imagine this geometry.
Logged

Klear

  • Elder
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1319
  • Twisted passages carry the smell of dapperness...
    • View Profile
Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #149 on: April 11, 2013, 06:27 »

Oh, a shotgun blast. For some reason I was imagining an explosion of said doomed enemy, going in all directions. My bad.
Logged
Arch-Vile Mjr General [24/19/18/8/2] (0.9.9.7)

Quote from: thelaptop
Dude... we need to change your forum handle from "Klear" to "Klear Nukem".
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 13