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[Matt_S]

Source code can be edited in pretty much any way imaginable.

[yaflhdztioxo]

Point 1: Putting the Lua BACK into DoomRL is actually very difficult.  You're in either memory editing or reverse engineering territory if you want to do that, not to mention knowing how to code.
Point 2: I've yet to see a cheater who, upon acquiring the source code to a single player game, decided to use that boon to create a cheater version for themselves.  That sort of thing is usually reserved for multiplayer Quake engine titles, and even there I suspect hijacking DLLs are more common because that's what everyone's familiar with and there's plenty of code out there for 'em.
Point 3: Eventually the DoomRL sources will be released.  This is a good thing and I would encourage experimentation.  If you want to create your own DoomRL that allows N! saves by all means have at it.  But it won't be our DoomRL at that point; it will be yours.

As far as attack venues are concerned, save scumming is the easiest and most common method that almost everyone with basic knowledge of file systems comes up with on their own.  Freezing a variable in memory is more involved; it requires using a second program and searching for useful addresses, but if you know what to use and how to use it it's not very hard either.  Anything involving editing the binary or the source code would require a great deal more skill, and I generally say the reverse engineers are having fun playing a game of IDA.  From the cheating perspective the first and possibly second scenario are the only two worth guarding against.  You mostly just want to throw enough barriers to aggravate the casual cheater.

But all of that's moot because we're not trying to protect against cheating, at least I don't think so.  People save scum.  I know this.  Everyone knows this.  It's given a wink and a nod all throughout the roguelike community.  We just want to screw with you, the player, on Nightmare.  Because we are evil.  And Nightmare isn't even remotely fair.

>)

[Matt_S]

Point 1: Putting the Lua BACK into DoomRL is actually very difficult.  You're in either memory editing or reverse engineering territory if you want to do that, not to mention knowing how to code.

Ehh, putting it back in is actually the easiest step of the process, though I don't want to give details on how to do it.  Editing things like enemy stats, items, or traits is extremely easy.

Point 2: I've yet to see a cheater who, upon acquiring the source code to a single player game, decided to use that boon to create a cheater version for themselves.  That sort of thing is usually reserved for multiplayer Quake engine titles, and even there I suspect hijacking DLLs are more common because that's what everyone's familiar with and there's plenty of code out there for 'em.

It's probably not common, but it is pretty easy if people wanted to do it for DoomRL.  It takes a single line change to make hellrunner give a -95% speed boost.  I think a non-programmer could figure out how to do it.

Point 3: Eventually the DoomRL sources will be released.  This is a good thing and I would encourage experimentation.  If you want to create your own DoomRL that allows N! saves by all means have at it.  But it won't be our DoomRL at that point; it will be yours.

If people are savescumming, it won't be our DoomRL either.  But if we're going to ignore the cheating potential like you suggest, then it just comes down to DoomRL being a dick because it can be.  Not the "haha you're dead" kind of dick, but the "haha you have to leave your computer on for 24 hours" kind of dick.

Ironically enough, unless I missed it, the part that blocks N! saves isn't in the lua code, so that would actually be one of the harder things to hack.

[yaflhdztioxo]

Well, sorear injected the patched files back into memory if I recall correctly after building his own improved Lua decompiler.  Everyone else who tried used luadec and built a wad creator/extractor.  Neither method is trivial or easy, and if you know of a simpler way I'd like to hear about it.

[Fanta Hege]

I'm gonna give my opinion on this:

Normal N! games do not need save feature, you should be able to handle 25 levels in one sitting.

However..
I do think that Ao100 and the varitations could seriously do with save feature on N!.
Grinds are not fun in one run, people need to have breaks every now and then.
No, leaving your computer running/leaving the program running in the background is not a valid solution, that just hogs resources for nothing.

Remember, this is a video game for gods sake, challenge and fun are what you're most likely playing this for, the latter being a bigger thing.
Unable to save does not fall under either gategory. It's just bad design taking note for the length.

[MaiZure]

I do think that Ao100 and the varitations could seriously do with save feature on N!.

How about the ability to earn saves in N!...anyone?

[Fanta Hege]

How about the ability to earn saves in N!...anyone?

Considering the randomness of Ao100 the word earn doesn't sound right..
Random enemy that gives you a soul to save with that is hard to kill?
Kill em all that can be very troublesome in later levels where you need this? 
Pull a lever in a gasoline smell level?
"oh great stair gods please accept my offering of large-medpack/exotic/unique?"

ofcourse if it really is that big of issue to limit it, just give a flat set amount of saves to use from the start, use em all and no more saves.

[MaiZure]

It could be something straightforward like a Hellgate every 25 levels which acts as an autosave.

[Equality]

It could be something straightforward like a Hellgate every 25 levels which acts as an autosave.

looks good. Not "auto" but just a save. And exit. But save not in ordinar "save" file but use some other name. May be add encrypted some bytes into one of .wad files. Of course save scumming possible... if backup whole folder)

[Evilpotatoe]

@yaflhdztioxo
I got to agree with you on one point : save scumming is clearly the easiest cheating method, and about everyone uses/used it sometimes, but I think only few people use it for cheating purposes.
Thats's why I don't think it's worth screwing the doomRL experience of legit players.

When you say other means of cheating are much more complex, I'm not sure, tough...
I don't have a great experience in cheating, but I remember looking for variables in memory with snes emulators... I'm pretty sure some softwares let you do similar editing with PC games. it might take more time, due to larger memory use, but I guess anyone used to cheat knows some efficient tools, and don't have any difficulty for that.
Also, I'm sure using a VM, while it's a quite heavy solution, is an extremely easy one to apply.

When you say it need computers skills... considering it's a roguelike, I think most people here have some.
I never saw "normal" people playing roguelikes. I'm sure they exist, but among my family or friends, it's like nobody could understand the point of playing such games : not enough gloss, not intuitive, too much retries needed... I believe such games only suit a public of passionate geeks, which is something I'd like to improve too, by making them more accessible (I didn't say easier eh, just... much more intuitive.)

How about the ability to earn saves in N!...anyone?

This one sounds really DoomRL-ish to me !
Makes sense, since it would "prevent" noobies to come and randomly start scumming, but would let experienced players play normally.
Requirements wouldn't have to cripple the game you're playing (tough, medkit sacrifice's idea is funny, but just unfair, when all you want is save your game "in case of", or need to suspend it)
But why not allow saving after first N! game completed ? Or after some number of badges ? (which doesn't looks good to me, since some people will have difficulty to reach gold badges, while other will find diamond are not that hard to get).

Oh, and stop referring to the fact that "N! isn't even remotely fair"... this warning has just been copy/pasted because it sounded cool and is quite true, but taking it at his words just sounds silly, especially here, where it's quoted from original doom to legitimate the absence of saves in N!, while it allowed them.
Respawning enemies firing at you like mad with increased speed and accuracy is unfair, but manageable. having to run 100, or 500 levels in a single session is senseless.

Normal N! games do not need save feature

Nor would a 10000 level game need it. It's just common sense to have one.

[Matt_S]

Well, sorear injected the patched files back into memory if I recall correctly after building his own improved Lua decompiler.  Everyone else who tried used luadec and built a wad creator/extractor.  Neither method is trivial or easy, and if you know of a simpler way I'd like to hear about it.

Well, a lot of it is sort of in plain sight.

• Valkyrie is open source.
• unluac, written by tehtmi and available on SourceForge, decompiles lua files into lua code.
• drlwad.exe, available in the modding forums, can compile wads (with some caveats).

The only really tricky part was getting the encryption key.

Edit: of course, most of the issue is getting the source.  If a person already had the source, then it's downright trivial.

[yaflhdztioxo]

Ah, I forgot about tehtmi's work.  Knowing him it probably produces files that compile correctly too, though you lose all the comments, labels, and other fun things that make it almost readable.

I don't think the wad creator is still on the forums or is otherwise easy to find though.  But if you have that and have solid lua scripts, yes, you can create your own wad, effectively creating your own game.  Though I still think memory editing is quicker and easier.

[skarczew]

I'm gonna give my opinion on this:

Normal N! games do not need save feature, you should be able to handle 25 levels in one sitting.

Depends on the way you play. If you take your time trying to kill every monster out there (for a 100% YAAM), then it may take longer than "one sitting". Maybe even more than two.