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Author Topic: Allow saving in N!  (Read 10650 times)

yaflhdztioxo

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Re: Allow saving in N!
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2013, 20:55 »

Not gonna happen.

N! doesn't pretend to be even remotely fair.
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Motorheadbanger

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Re: Allow saving in N!
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2013, 00:43 »

Why don't you put a pair of Cyberdemons on the stairs of the first floor, then?
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Tormuse

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Re: Allow saving in N!
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2013, 02:30 »

Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and talk a bit about the subject of cheating...

I recognize that people have no particular reason to believe that any of my mortems and any of my 20+ Diamond Badges are legitimate.  As Evilpotatoe pointed out, anyone can just edit their mortem and post a fake mortem easily. And I recognize that the fact that I've never posted a video of my playing may lend itself to the opinion that my runs might be fake.  (Although, I swear the reason is because I have an ancient, crappy computer which doesn't do any kind of recording very well)  :P  For that matter, I have to confess that I've had occasion to wonder about 2Dev's runs since, if you'll forgive my language, they don't make any goddamn sense to me!  O_o  I hesitate to say such things, though, because I realize it would probably make me sound petty and hypocritical to question the authenticity of anyone else's mortems when there's just as much reason to doubt mine.

In any case, what it all comes down to is that the DoomRL forums work by the honour system.  We have to trust that people posting their mortems are being honest, because, with few exceptions, there's no way to prove otherwise.  Speaking for myself, I just don't see the point of posting a cheating game because it considerably waters down the "achievement."  Really, what good would it do me?  Would there be anything to feel good about that?  Does it really give cheaters some sense of accomplishment to know that they fooled people?  I really don't know, because I can't identify with that feeling.  I mean I admit that I did some save-scumming back when I first discovered the game and I was still figuring things out, (like the fact that the BFG10K hurts you)  ;)  but to share such games with people just seems pointless to me.  Those cheating games I played were solely for the benefit of my own learning and nothing else.

Anyway, I forgot where I was going with all of this, so I think I'll leave it at that.  :P
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Equality

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Re: Allow saving in N!
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2013, 06:52 »

about saving:
- original DOOM not allow save game on N! (and famous IDDQD - cheats too)
- N! is a challenge. No saving is a part of rules.
- some people win N! games. That is possible and a "top score". Make N! game more easy = devaluate those wins.

about cheating:
- I think it is ok. Game can allow cheating or maybe internal "cheat-codes". Cheating grants understanding of game rules, mechanics and possibilities.
- but from other side of course such a mortems are meaningless, do not post them )

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yaflhdztioxo

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Re: Allow saving in N!
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2013, 07:38 »

If someone wants to cheat they can cheat.  I don't have a problem with it by itself; it's practically a level of play all its own.  If you're cheating so that you can test different setups or practice future levels, great.  I did.  If you're cheating just because you want to win quickly without being any good I look down on you.  And if you're cheating so that you can have an awesome mortem you're a sad person indeed (though sometimes people get interesting mortems and acknowledge they were cheating--that's fine too).

So people cheat.  That doesn't mean we should immediately reverse course and start sprinkling players with ammo and medkits.  This is rogulelike land, not Mario Party, and people have certain expectations.  We're not interested in a happy bubbly world where every player is victorious.  We want a brutal world filled with unholy abominations, built on the twisted backs of dead characters.  We want demons terrorizing Earth with impunity.  We want mankind relegated to the dust bin of oblivion.  Our players can recognize each other on the street by their thousand yard stares, and that's the way we in roguelike land LIKE it.


*breathes deeply into paper bag*
My point is, saving in N! is a silly request because N! has a different target audience.  There are four other levels of play that we've been strong-armed into including which DO allow saving along with a whole host of other genres structured around such outdated concepts as 'mercy' and 'fair play'.  And you should be thankful for that.  Because if I had my way...
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MaiZure

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Re: Allow saving in N!
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2013, 07:57 »

...there would be no saving at any difficulty level!

After all, isn't this supposed to be coffee-break casual?

I support this change 110%! Just be glad I'm not on the dev team :P
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tylor

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Re: Allow saving in N!
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2013, 08:03 »

I think it is not coffee-break anymore. And above HNTR, not quite casual.
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thelaptop

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Re: Allow saving in N!
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2013, 08:25 »

I think it is not coffee-break anymore. And above HNTR, not quite casual.
  • One person's casual (2DeviationsOut) is another's nightmare (the rest of us).
  • Everyone tries to kill everything.  You don't have to in order to win the game (there's a reason why Medal of Prejudice exists).
  • The higher difficulties do not "unlock" anything more than more achievements -- the first few games that you play and win should be enough to unlock most of the other parts of the game.  Now if it were said that all achievements are supposed to be attainable by the "casual" player, I seriously question judgement.
  • Remember the old game of chess?  You could play it with a bunch of friends when you were young -- each game didn't take that long, right?  Now compare that game played by the Grand Masters... one could play it seriously or less so, and that's what DoomRL provides you with, the choice of the level of commitment you want to play at.
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Allow saving in N!
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2013, 11:25 »

Quote
original DOOM not allow save game on N! (and famous IDDQD - cheats too)
What are you saying... ? Of course original doom allowed to save in N! Only cheats where disabled, which is unhandy, but more than understandable, since N! is intended to be a challenge, not just a free respawning targets shooting range.
While it is often abused by poor players, the save is intended to let you suspend your game, nothing more...
I admit it took me years to understand it, since I had taken habits of save scumming when I was young, and few games do any effort to point out you shouldn't save scum. But once I grew a little, I realized this completely negates the point of the game... and started playing doom/quake/warcraft... without ever save scumming.

Quote
No saving is a part of rules
Some rules are wrong. It's what I'm trying to improve with this request.
As I and some other posters said, cheating is not a problem, both because most people don't cheat, and because the few cheaters will always be able to, anyway.

Quote
Make N! game more easy = devaluate those wins
Out of context, this would be true, but the mistake here is that saving doesn't make game easier. only cheating does (and save scumming is cheating, it sounds quite obvious).


About cheating, I personally think it can be fun, sometimes (I still have a key to give me a quad damage, and another for all weapons & ammo bound on quake... everyone should try this at least once :p).
But removing the difficulty often also removes a part of the fun, and more importantly, prevents achieving something.
For long, I tought I'd play on Hengband in wizard mode, or easy mode, just to discover the game more easily, since I was pissed of by insta-death I didn't even understand, but finally I never did... (and even won 2 or 3 games). The fact is : playing without difficulty isn't interresting... (except maybe for a few people, but I think cheaters just want to show how great they are, caring more about demonstrating their "skills" than playing the game)

Personally, I'd be in favor of adding cheats or "wizard mode" to doomRL, for the reasons you gave. But this is another debate, and such things are way less necessary than the simple ability to save a game.

@yaflhdztioxo :
What do you have against Mario ? Mario is a great game... for speedrunning. or for kids, or just nostalgia.
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Napsterbater

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Re: Allow saving in N!
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2013, 11:32 »

(Although, I swear the reason is because I have an ancient, crappy computer which doesn't do any kind of recording very well)
Sounds like a worthy target for a Kickstarter campaign!
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yaflhdztioxo

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Re: Allow saving in N!
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2013, 11:34 »

Mario is fun, but at the end of the day it wants you to win.  Mario Party on the other hand is not fun at all.
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Matt_S

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Re: Allow saving in N!
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2013, 13:08 »

This is rogulelike land, not Mario Party, and people have certain expectations.

...

There are four other levels of play that we've been strong-armed into including which DO allow saving along with a whole host of other genres structured around such outdated concepts as 'mercy' and 'fair play'.
I don't quite understand the point here, because I can't think of any serious roguelike besides DoomRL N! that doesn't allow saving.

As I and some other posters said, cheating is not a problem, both because most people don't cheat, and because the few cheaters will always be able to, anyway.
Quoted for emphasis.
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yaflhdztioxo

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Re: Allow saving in N!
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2013, 13:56 »

the few cheaters will always be able to, anyway

I beg to differ.  Save scumming is a common form of cheating that is well known and achievable by anyone with basic knowledge of file systems.  It's also very tempting as pretty much anyone playing an emulator with save states will tell you.

Hex editing a binary or fixing addresses in memory is not as easy.  It's also less tempting; you won't idly find yourself locking your health when there isn't a key bound to it.

There's a serious psychological aspect at play here, and it goes beyond just cheating.  I would in fact argue that disabling saves for N! is NOT a feature intended solely to punish save scumming.  It's a kick in the balls to everyone and a reminder of what they signed up for.  Let 'em crash.
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Matt_S

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Re: Allow saving in N!
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2013, 20:39 »

Hex editing or editing memory addresses may be difficult, but getting the lua source code from doomrl.wad is not that difficult.  That's a cheater's dream.
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yaflhdztioxo

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Re: Allow saving in N!
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2013, 21:30 »

I don't see how.

With one glaring exception there's nothing in the Lua that shouldn't also be on the wiki.  Stats aren't secret.
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