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[TFoN]

Adral, you keep pointing just inches away from my original idea, not quite getting the meaning of my suggestion.
Ok, first off, I've encountered the Pancor Jackhammer in both Fallout2 and Abomination: Nemesis Project, and if it's anything like it is there, that's one hell of a firearm :P
Now, back to here:

I don't mean AssltSGs to make for long-range devestators, but that they will still deal *serious* damage at the LOS edge.

Aye? E.g. if you set base to-hit to, say 550%, and then cut off 50% per tile traveled (first tile included), then at the LOS edge (9 tiles?) it's 100%, but on the next tile it's 50%, and 0% after that. And that's just on-the-spot - once calculated, betad and tweaked, it will hit very often *inside* LOS, but nearly never right off it, Cateye, Intuition or otherwise (EE will be taken better into account).

As for Intuition, IMO it's an emulation of repeated play and educated expectations (considering here most maps aren't pregenerated) - and the way I see it, that's not undoomish at all, as long as the AI's uped a couple of notches (though DooM has more than it's share of 0-range stupid-standers :) ).

[Adral]

Adral, you keep pointing just inches away from my original idea, not quite getting the meaning of my suggestion.

[snip]

E.g. if you set base to-hit to, say 550%, and then cut off 50% per tile traveled (first tile included), then at the LOS edge (9 tiles?) it's 100%, but on the next tile it's 50%, and 0% after that. And that's just on-the-spot - once calculated, betad and tweaked, it will hit very often *inside* LOS, but nearly never right off it, Cateye, Intuition or otherwise (EE will be taken better into account).

Well, you didn't quite explain that before, just pointed out it would kick at LOS range, coupled with "one-shell", "straight-line", and "lots of pain to a single target". Sounded like a sniper rifle, so it's not entirely my fault.:P

Still, now that I understand your suggestion, I don't find them necessary (as opposite of not finding them doomish, like I said on a post before). I think tweaking the shotguns is a better idea if anything was going to happen in that direction.

As for Intuition, IMO it's an emulation of repeated play and educated expectations (considering here most maps aren't pregenerated) - and the way I see it, that's not undoomish at all, as long as the AI's uped a couple of notches (though DooM has more than it's share of 0-range stupid-standers :) ).

With this I agree: the AI might use some work up.

But I didn't mean to imply the traits were "undoomish" per se, just that I found they could be tweaked to not be so powerful. As I said, being cheap is not my cup of tea, as opposed as thinking my way on a balanced game. When you can clearly say (and is a generalized opinion) that the game is much easier with Intuition, then something is wrong.

[TFoN]

To pt.1- ok, now that we're on the same track :)
Possibly so, though I disagree, but in the case of narrow angles: they're mostly all that I suggested but with a shorter max-range for good damage, and hitting multiple targets (BTW, I assume we agree that their advantage is higher damage, which by diminishing at a similar rate as SGs do now means "focused" damage in the narrow funnel - so double-damage and half the funnel width).
Assuming this doesn't make them overpowered, then aside from this being exactly the situation I'm trying to balance (i.e. you'll still need a CG to complement them in too many cases), a double-shotgun out-classes these simply by doing the same damage and having a wider funnel (or: since it's for double ammo, maybe just pick the SG, which wasn't supposed to make much sense).
Furthermore, give DblSGs a narrow angle (if it's a trait) and then *they*'ll be too tough, at double-damage of a DblSG, which is like~ a point-blank SG hit, but at long range and multiple targets, still never missing = too much pain!

Let me know, of course, if you had something very different in mind.


To pt.2- Aye.
Still, it seems many people are unaware of the advantages of Intuition (as I've undersood from some comments). If beyond that they're also aware of advantages of traits that I or we don't use, then it may become simply a matter of personal strategy, and our/their not knowing how to manage their/our style of play. That's what I'd like to clear up, but haven't yet succeeded.

[Adral]

To pt.1- ok, now that we're on the same track :)
Possibly so, though I disagree, but in the case of narrow angles: they're mostly all that I suggested but with a shorter max-range for good damage, and hitting multiple targets (BTW, I assume we agree that their advantage is higher damage, which by diminishing at a similar rate as SGs do now means "focused" damage in the narrow funnel - so double-damage and half the funnel width).
Assuming this doesn't make them overpowered, then aside from this being exactly the situation I'm trying to balance (i.e. you'll still need a CG to complement them in too many cases), a double-shotgun out-classes these simply by doing the same damage and having a wider funnel (or: since it's for double ammo, maybe just pick the SG, which wasn't supposed to make much sense).
Furthermore, give DblSGs a narrow angle (if it's a trait) and then *they*'ll be too tough, at double-damage of a DblSG, which is like~ a point-blank SG hit, but at long range and multiple targets, still never missing = too much pain!

Ok, so traits are discarded. I actually never proposed them, but still it's good we come to an agreement:P. What I said is that we can take advantage of the fact that weapons mods are coming at the next version to add a Shotgun-specific mod (and I do mean Shotgun, not Combat Shotgun nor Double Shotgun) that narrows it's spread. That, coupled with the damage reduction at higher distance, as you said, might keep things balanced.

To pt.2- Aye.
Still, it seems many people are unaware of the advantages of Intuition (as I've undersood from some comments). If beyond that they're also aware of advantages of traits that I or we don't use, then it may become simply a matter of personal strategy, and our/their not knowing how to manage their/our style of play. That's what I'd like to clear up, but haven't yet succeeded.

Blade, who everybody knows is a mutant cyborg from a RL dimension (:P), has said the game is easier with Intuition. I trust his word as he's an experienced player that has gone doing almost all possible combinations of skills. I have also found in my games that once I get Intuition[3] and a Sniper Plasma Rifle or Rocket Launcher, I can toast almost anyone from a distance.

[TFoN]

Ok, so traits are discarded. I actually never proposed them, but still it's good we come to an agreement:P.

I was sure there was a proposition like that, from you or someone else, but after going over everything pretty well it seems I was wrong. My bad :)

What I said is that we can take advantage of the fact that weapons mods are coming at the next version to add a Shotgun-specific mod (and I do mean Shotgun, not Combat Shotgun nor Double Shotgun) that narrows it's spread. That, coupled with the damage reduction at higher distance, as you said, might keep things balanced.

But will still not make shells available for long[er :) ]-ranged attacks, and will still keep CGs advantageous for the most part (although the out-LOS hit-rate tweak suggestions might change that. I guess that's just left to be seen).

Blade, who everybody knows is a mutant cyborg from a RL dimension (:P), has said the game is easier with Intuition.

That's true, then I guess the case is closed :)