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Author Topic: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous  (Read 5395 times)

bwross

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2013, 01:20 »

I did see this on the wiki, but it mentions 1 HP/turn. Still doesn't quite balance the bit of basic math I worked out above (which, I realise didn't even account for the P-mod).

I think you're over estimating the double shotty's damage. 

As I understand things (and I'm willing to be corrected if I got anything dreadfully wrong here), the gross average for each shell of a P-mod DS is 20 - 2 * distance.  So corner shooting at a range of 2 means that the first shell is expected to do 16, knocking the Shambler back 2, so the second shell only does 12... for 28 average. 

Then the Shambler gets to apply it's 3 AC... double for shrapnel, and double again because there are two shells, so subtract 12... so we're back to 16. 

Then the Shambler has to walk the three/four squares back into position, so we'll just estimate that you'll lose around 3.5 of that progress to regeneration... giving 12.5 damage of progress on average.  Which means you should expect 8 shots to kill a Shambler in this optimal position... except that it also it can be expected to teleport more than once every other shot (2 walks of 3.5, and it teleports about 1 in 6) and regenerate even more, so you should really be prepared to take a few more shots. 

I also notice that you were only firing "relatively close", which suggests that the Shambler might have been 4 or even 5 away on some of those shots, and that 10% damage reduction will strip things further very fast... you might have only been doing half as well as the repeated corner shooting situation presented, if that, on many shots.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 01:36 by bwross »
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AlterAsc

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2013, 01:51 »

@LuckyDee
Never underestimate huge DS damage dropoff and the fact that armor is applied twice against shrapnel. Shooting with DS from more than 4-5 tiles is completely useless.

As for the strategy: you could equip shell box, wait until shambler is near wall, and simply shoot him at point-blank(or one tile away from him) and reload until it died. Of course you would constantly get hit, but it's quite reliable method.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 01:55 by AlterAsc »
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bwross

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2013, 01:59 »

Yeah, my post was about the optimal, but still defensive position.  If you're willing to stand toe-to-toe with a Shambler with a wall behind it (so there's no knockback), and have a stack of  assorted shotguns to Juggle, that would be the quickest way to take one down.  And when you've got two of them running about, that might actually be advisable.
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Ashannar

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2013, 02:28 »

I, too, got my butt handed to me by the Shambler duo. Next playthrough I went AoB and completely annihilated them both with a vampyre build in about 5 turns.

I'm sort of disappointed by the huge disconnect between melee and ranged in this fight.
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LuckyDee

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2013, 02:53 »

Never underestimate huge DS damage dropoff and the fact that armor is applied twice against shrapnel. Shooting with DS from more than 4-5 tiles is completely useless.

Dropoff - according to the wiki - is 10% per tile, so I calculated 0.9^4 for 4 tiles (bear in mind I estimate I averaged 3-4 tiles, so I got a couple of [near] point blank shots in as well). In the worst case it would be 1-0.1*4, though the difference is marginal. Let's assume armour of 3, so 6 against shrapnel.

On average, P-modded double shotgun at 4 tiles, shot 1 would do 9*2.5*(1-0.1*4)-6 = 7.5 damage, (assume knockback 1 tile) shot 2 would do 9*2.5*(1-0.1*5)-6 = 5.25 damage. Rounding off to 13 in total.

Minimum damage at 2 tiles initial distance (and assuming knockback of 2)would be 9*(1-0.1*2)-6 + 9*(1-0.1*4)-6 = 1.2 + 0 = ah.... pathetic. Now this is starting to make sense. Then again, average is 19, maximum is close to 40.

That still spells an unreasonably high shrapnel resistance to me. And this in itself isn't too bad, but paired with regeneration, teleportation, plasma projectiles and in stereo where available... it's a bit steep. At least compared to Hell's Armory and at dlev 9.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 02:55 by LuckyDee »
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AlterAsc

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2013, 04:00 »

Quote
shot 1 would do 9*2.5*(1-0.1*4)-6 = 7.5 damage
P-modded DS is 10d3, not 9d4, so:
First shot would do 10*2*0,6 - 6 = 6 dmg, second would deal 20*0,5 - 6 = 4. Whoopping 10 damage.
From range of 6 tiles and more damage is most likely 1.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 04:01 by AlterAsc »
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LuckyDee

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2013, 05:08 »

P-modded DS is 10d3, not 9d4, so:
First shot would do 10*2*0,6 - 6 = 6 dmg, second would deal 20*0,5 - 6 = 4. Whoopping 10 damage.
From range of 6 tiles and more damage is most likely 1.

You're probably right, I didn't check the in-game info; the wiki mentioned 'sides +1' for a P-mod, so I assumed 9D4. I also concede that the damage is far from impressive - nowhere near as good as I thought even, but 5*10 damage should still be enough to kill something with 20 HP instead of not coming close to knocking 10 off...
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