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Author Topic: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous  (Read 5516 times)

LuckyDee

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[M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« on: March 23, 2013, 09:12 »

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Igor Savin, level 7 Former Human Corporal Scout,
 was electrocuted by a shambler on level 1 of the Deimos base.
 He survived 49758 turns and scored 26903 points.
 He played for 59 minutes and 14 seconds.
 He didn't like it too rough.

 He killed 247 out of 249 hellspawn. (99%)
 He was a real killing machine...
 He was an Angel of Shotgunnery!

 He saved himself 2 times.

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 4
  Levels completed : 3

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  UAC Star (bronze cluster)
  Hell Champion Medal

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  .......====########.............######........#.##.......*#
  ......====#########..............####.........#.##........#
  .....====##########..##########...##........../.....##....#
  ....====###==================###..........#####.....##....#
  ...====###====================###......;..#!".#############
  ...===###======================###........#...#===========#
  ...===###=====.....|......=====####...|...#...#===========#
  ...===###====..###....###..====####.......##//#==#######==#
  ...===###====..###....###..====............|.}.==....}.#^=#
  ...===###====..###....###..==|||..........}.[|.==...|}}#^=#
  ...===###====..###....###..====####...[..[##/}#==#######==#
  ...===###=====............=====####...;}..#..|#===========#
  ...===###======================###.....X|}#.|.#===========#
  ...====###====================###........|#...#############
  ....====###==================###..........#####...........#
  .....====##########..##########.|.##........../.....!!.|..#
  ......====#########............}.####.........#........}..#
  .......====########...........}|######BB......#..;.......*#
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/50   Experience 16586/7
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +0  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +0

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Finesse          (Level 1)
    Hellrunner       (Level 1)
    Reloader         (Level 2)
    Juggler          (Level 1)
    Shottyman        (Level 1)
    Shottyhead       (Level 1)

  Rel->Rel->SM->HR->Fin->Jug->MSh->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   red armor [4/4] (71%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   double shotgun (10d3)x2 [2/2] (P1)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   steel boots [1/1] (60%) (A)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   tactical shotgun (8d3) [5/5]

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] tristar blaster (4d5)x3 [45/45]
    [b] blue armor [2/2] (81%)
    [c] shotgun shell (x50)
    [d] shotgun shell (x50)
    [e] shotgun shell (x50)
    [f] shotgun shell (x50)
    [g] shotgun shell (x50)
    [h] shotgun shell (x50)
    [i] shotgun shell (x20)
    [j] shotgun shell (x50)
    [k] phase device
    [l] technical mod pack
    [m] Arena Master's Staff
    [n] shell box (x73)
    [o] shell box (x100)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Fire       - internal 0%    torso 25%   feet 0%   

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    81 former humans
    37 former sergeants
    14 former captains
    24 imps
    13 demons
    50 lost souls
    12 cacodemons
    2 hell knights
    4 arachnotrons
    5 elite former humans
    2 elite former sergeants
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 Arena Master

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
  He defeated the Hell Arena Master!
  On level 5 he found the Arena Master's Staff!
  On level 7 he marched into the Military Base.
  On level 7 he assembled a tactical shotgun!
  He purified his fellow comrades.
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  On level 9 he entered Deimos Lab.
  On level 9 he finally was electrocuted by a shambler.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 You see : a shambler (mortally wounded) | floor | [ m ]ore
 You are hit! You dodge! Boom!
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : a shambler (mortally wounded) | floor | [ m ]ore
 You dodge!
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : floor
 You are hit! There is a green armor [1/1] (100%) lying here.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : a shambler (wounded) | floor | [ m ]ore
 There is a green armor [1/1] (100%) lying here.
 You are hit! You dodge! There is a pistol (2d4) [6/6] lying here.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : a shambler (wounded) | floor | [ m ]ore
 There is a pistol (2d4) [6/6] lying here.
 You are hit! You die!... Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 4 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 2 of those were killed.
 And 1 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 1 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 1 killed the bitch and survived.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, so allowed myself 1 more Too Young To Die run to firmly re-establish my grip, and then went on to HNTR with the Angel of Shotgunnery. Nice chance at a shiny new badge, and I like shotguns anyway, so why not. Even though I took several moderate beatings throughout Phobos, it went pretty well, Anomaly was a cakewalk. On Deimos 1 I encounter stairs to the Deimos Lab, and - hungry for experience as I am - I descend.

First impressions: nice new level, nice touch with the teleporters. I can hear Arachnotrons running around, but with a P-modded double shotgun and a tactical (and lotsa cover), I shall know no fear. Right. Until I pull the four levers I find where the Arachnotrons used to live.

Lotsa screaming, and a Shambler appears. "Hmmm", goes I, "I've seen these before, I still have lotsa cover, should be a piece of cake." Then a second one appears. I swallow hard as my sphincter contracts, then quickly decide to roll with it and make use of cover as much as possible, eventually running off of the little island in the acid lake since I got shot into it a couple of times, only speeding my defeat.

Here's the kicker: I had 3 armours, 5 large medpacks and enough shells to arm a moderately sized African country. I could not kill one single shambler. I got one on mortally wounded and got at least 5 more relatively close-ranged shots with the P-modded in and still it refused to die. What the HELL??
These bastards must have taken at least 150 shells, no way did I ever need this much ammo for the Shambler in the 0996 Armory, which I virtually always used to kill in the same fashion: cornershooting with a double shotty.

In hindsight, maybe the Tristar I found would have made a difference (though I seem to recall it packs cells, which I naturally didn't have), but by then I was too flabbergasted to even want to win anymore. It'll be awhile before I'll be pulling those levers again. Poor Igor.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 09:21 by LuckyDee »
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Radagast

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2013, 10:48 »

Both the labs are not that easy now as it seems. Armory was a cakewalk indeed in 0.9.9.6 that's certainly true, even on HMP/UV.

Btw I just finished both phobos and deimos lab in UV now.
The nightmare demons in the 1st and the shamblers in the 2nd were indeed a "true" nightmare.
Burned through my blue/red armors and large medpacks like candy.
Tactical shotgun was not good enough to kill 2 of them together.
Wouldn't have made it alive probably was it not for the cateye build and the plasma rifle I ended up using in order to kill those nasty critters fast.
Even then endless amount of corner and radar shooting was needed.
At least intuition2 helps immensely there.

Personal opinion is that the 2 shamblers are indeed going way too overboard for all difficulties below UV, let alone on ITYTD and HNTR.
Up until HMP one shambler is probably enough perhaps have it with some more summons, but a 2nd shambler together? I srsly don't know.

I admit it was a nice surprise though.
I'll think twice before going in there with other builds..
Besides, the place is optional though I did love the nano pack I got in the end, made the reward much more sweet.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 12:24 by Radagast »
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Games: 37 -- Wins: 0/2/3/5/0, best game so far: AoSh/UV/YAAM
Now trying: Arch-Vile/Colonel (11k kills, 150 melee kills, 3 Gold to get)

LuckyDee

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2013, 11:42 »

Besides, the place is optional though I did love the nano pack I got in the end, made the reward much more sweet.

It appears you can still do Deimos Lab (even on YAAM) without dealing with the Shamblers; once you kill the rest, the game indicates the level has been cleared anyhow. The bulk of it is pretty easy experience.

Either you are correct and these are Nightmare Shamblers, or their stats have been severely changed at least when it comes to shrapnel resistance. A defnite nono for AoSh, by my book.
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Radagast

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2013, 12:18 »

It appears you can still do Deimos Lab (even on YAAM) without dealing with the Shamblers; once you kill the rest, the game indicates the level has been cleared anyhow. The bulk of it is pretty easy experience.

Either you are correct and these are Nightmare Shamblers, or their stats have been severely changed at least when it comes to shrapnel resistance. A defnite nono for AoSh, by my book.

You do lose the uber mod packs which is the final reward though.
I was referring to the nightmare demons in Phobos lab UV. Not the shamblers in Deimos Lab you misunderstood.
I'm pretty sure there is no nightmare version of any boss in this game anyway, at least not on normal runs we play.

The only reason the shamblers seem impossible is completely due to their simultaneous teleports and attacks. They are not more powerful than before imo. (unless their stats were indeed beefed as well though I doubt it)
It's just that 2 together won't let you do any decent corner shooting let alone give you enough time to kill them with a mere shotgun. The layout of the lvl doesn't help much either.
Shambler in armory was also easier since you could hide in small room corners next to the large corridor and keep pushing it behind with knockbacks. Damageless armory was common along with shambler's head badge.
I wonder how someone can do damageless deimos lab now as it is with those 2 meatballs blinking around together.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 12:25 by Radagast »
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Games: 37 -- Wins: 0/2/3/5/0, best game so far: AoSh/UV/YAAM
Now trying: Arch-Vile/Colonel (11k kills, 150 melee kills, 3 Gold to get)

LuckyDee

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2013, 14:49 »

They are not more powerful than before imo. (unless their stats were indeed beefed as well though I doubt it)
It's just that 2 together won't let you do any decent corner shooting let alone give you enough time to kill them with a mere shotgun.

I hope you're right, but like I wrote I had one down to mortally wounded (the other was only at wounded yet), and 5 shots (averageing 32.4 damage each, according to the Wiki) did not put it down. Cross-reference with the page for the shambler: it took 162 damage to not kill a mortally wounded Shambler, which has a total of 100 health in mint condition.

Something smells...
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Isasaur

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2013, 16:41 »

Possibly a bug? I also got YASD to them shamblers :(
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MaiZure

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2013, 17:02 »

I've always found that shotguns were nearly useless against the shambles UNLESS you had a double and it was against a wall and you were at melee range. The problem for me is their healing.

I just a UV/AoSh yesterday in the same place with the same status. 5 Medpacks, MAD, and no shamblers killed.

I'd suggest just avoiding it on a shotgun build entirely.
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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2013, 17:07 »

Um, you guys know that Shamblers regenerate, right? O.o
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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2013, 17:58 »

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Radagast

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2013, 18:47 »

Haha truth is I had completely forgotten.
Never had that much trouble to actually remember it. :S

So solution is try a more-dps build next time. :P
Or do plasma dmg which ignores half armor...
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Tormuse

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2013, 19:03 »

Congratulations, you have the dubious honour of joining the ranks of people who found that out the hard way!  :D  I'll save you some aggravation and let you know that the same is true of the Lava Elemental.

And yeah, I wouldn't recommend going up against a Shambler with a Shotgun unless you have MAD.  (And certainly not two Shamblers!)  ;)

And I also agree that pitting the player against two Shamblers seems a little...  unbalancing, considering that this level is supposed to be the equivalent to Hell's Armory, especially since the Shamblers teleport in so close to you, with so little cover, whereas in Hell's Armory, the Shambler starts at the opposite end of the map, giving you time to get into a defensible position.  (Disclaimer:  I haven't played the latest version of Deimos Lab yet; I don't know if there have been any changes since the Beta version, so my memory of the level may be different from reality)
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MaiZure

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2013, 19:10 »

Public release hasn't changed much in the Lab.

I agree that the Lab's finale is more difficult than the Armory for two reasons.

Obvious 1) 2 Shamblers

But more importantly 2) The Lab has a lot less cover to deal with the two shambers where as the Armory is full of choke points and doorways. Rapid builds and pistols are still pretty manageable but shotgun builds suffer. The problem is exaggerated at UV+
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LuckyDee

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2013, 23:11 »

Um, you guys know that Shamblers regenerate, right? O.o

I did see this on the wiki, but it mentions 1 HP/turn. Still doesn't quite balance the bit of basic math I worked out above (which, I realise didn't even account for the P-mod).
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Deathwind

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2013, 00:36 »

Did you account for the armor counting double for shrapnel damage and the horrid drop off rate of the double shotgun?
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LuckyDee

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Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2013, 00:57 »

No. I know the calculation is a long way off from being correct, but still: a 100 HP monster in a mortally wounded state (so max 20 Health) should not survive 5x2 P-modded shells (average distance of about 3-4 tiles, I guess). It never even hit 'almost dead'.

I'll try a slightly more scientific approach:
At four tiles distance, minimum damage I think amounts to 2x9*0.9^4=11.8, average (P-modded) 2x9x2.5*0.9^4=29.5, max 2x9x4x0.9^4=47.2.
So it took at least 59 damage, had 20 health max, regenerated 10 (for the sake of the argument, 1 per reload and 1 per shot) and never dropped below 11.
That means a minimum shrapnel resistance of, what, 85% (1-9/59)?

EDIT: wanted to look up its armour, since I forgot to include this in the calculation, but most enemy pages on the wiki have been emptied in the last hour or so...
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 01:00 by LuckyDee »
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High: Arch-Vile Lt. Colonel [25/21/12/2/1/0]
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