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Author Topic: Opinions on new special levels needed!  (Read 23511 times)

errol

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Re: Opinions on new special levels needed!
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2013, 13:54 »

Deimos lab. I have not found the two shamblers to be too tough.  If you keep your envirosuit from the base or phobos lab, you have two soul spheres to kill the two shamblers with. It just makes it rather easy, and you get an extra rare modpack for it.. So if anything I prefer it to show up. The rewards are too great, usually after this the rest of the game is a breeze.

Phobos lab is certainly one of the toughest, and it is kinda lame walking face into nightmare demons, especially two of them. I have usually ended up burning a lot of resources in here, but I haven't died on it yet. And right after is phobos anomaly, so your resources are replenished...

In the games I have played everything after deimos lab has ended up being a cakewalk. With all the new levels, I seem to hit that critical mass earlier and more guaranteed with all the mod packs there are now (even though I am still getting schematics instead of mod packs). The 2 games I completed I finished the bosses without taking more than 2 hits (for 1 hp each, thanks to berserker - which I seem to be able to reach in time for the cathedral after getting 2 whizkid and a master trait - don't know if this was or was not the case before, I did melee little before).
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LuckyDee

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Re: Opinions on new special levels needed!
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2013, 14:15 »

(even though I am still getting schematics instead of mod packs)

Good call. I'm still missing assemblies from all three categories (basic/advanced/master), but on the last couple of runs - at least 2 - HA gave me mods, not schematics. Is that right?

[EDIT]: Nevermind, looks like it is.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 14:16 by LuckyDee »
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errol

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Re: Opinions on new special levels needed!
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2013, 23:04 »

looking again, I see that the soul spheres on deimos are just behind acid. with protective boots (not too unlikely even if you haven't found any up to now, because of all the crates..) you can pick those charges up for about 20% hp. One way or another, it makes them really easy to handle, and you get more rewards than hell's armory. The exception would be if you are playing a build with serious trouble damaging the shamblers. But the way I play I like it a lot better. At this point if I find an onyx or nano pack I'm golden. If I find firestorm/sniper pack/schematic could still be rough.
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zenfur

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Re: Opinions on new special levels needed!
« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2013, 14:53 »

Just a shortie:
 ^%$^$#^$%%$ missile launchers, tons of them, and are useless (in amounts of more than 1; I have usually encounter around 3 each run) 3$#$@$#.... I miss nuclear plasma rifle <3 ... :'( And why one can't rocket jump on that? It's about half of the utility rocket launcher provides...
Also my nemesis (semi useless exotic which I usually see in amounts of 2 or more) is assault shotgun, but that has nothing to new levels ;P Just saying so one won't have dumb ideas about adding more guaranteed ones.

To ease Phobos Lab which is clearly more difficult than Military Base the enviro shouldn't end on the ambush (Angel of Impatience... pppaaaain)

I find Deimos great, that is more difficult and rewarding. Double the shamblers, double  the fun. With new AI they are SO much painful to take down now :(

Useful to notice: The contaminent area is a lot easier to tp in as Angel of something limiting, than The wall and is a lot easier to clean for such runs (as you don't tp into shitton of barons rraaound)

Finally I don't have 3 BFGs in backpack, only 2. That's a great progress, 2 is ideal :)

Limbo is much easier than the mortuary in my opinion. Mostly because of the lava. On the other hand skulls are not so effective here, so it balances that.
Mt Erebus is too open or too closed, as those Mancubes always destroy all the loot I could get :/
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 15:10 by zenfur »
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Klear

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Re: Opinions on new special levels needed!
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2013, 16:33 »

Just a shortie:
 ^%$^$#^$%%$ missile launchers, tons of them, and are useless (in amounts of more than 1; I have usually encounter around 3 each run) 3$#$@$#.... I miss nuclear plasma rifle <3 ... :'( And why one can't rocket jump on that? It's about half of the utility rocket launcher provides...

Missile launchers are absolutely fabulous, though I agree that getting three of them is kinda bothersome... =/
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SageAcrin

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Re: Opinions on new special levels needed!
« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2013, 22:40 »

As someone that started with this version and has no idea what the special levels were really like beforehand...

Arena: Seems fairly balanced for what it is. Total deathtrap on N! for my money, but considering the badges for it, I think that's intentional enough.

Chained Court: Enjoyable, I generally find it a bit easy, but it gives some basic, reliable resources. Good stuff.

(Un)Chained Court: Somewhat harder. Haven't tried this on N!, see comment about the Arena being a deathtrap, but lower than that I still can't say I find it ridiculously hard.

Military Base: Relatively easy, but sorta easy to screw up too. Elite Commandos are ridiculously and randomly dangerous, which seems okay until they fire a Napalm Launcher at you(Had that happen on UV once. Lost 70% of my life from one shot and had to Phase in order to not die instantly.). Loot is pretty random in practice(very breakable crates oriented) but the mods are always nice.

Phobos Lab: Generally worse than base, as noted. I find it pretty manageable on UV and below, but the main loot to me is the extra two large Medkits...and on N! I have not found a way to deal with the Nightmare Demon hallway of "You're never moving, are you?" doom without burning healing, so this makes the rewards rather bad there. It's generally easier than Base on lower difficulties, I find, but the rewards are pretty meh overall. Also, I hate the scripted loss of Envirosuit, it's out of place and basically just a cheapshot. Easy to avoid the cheapshot by picking up both suits and just using the second one after it, to boot.

Hell Armory: A bit easy, good rewards, and if I need spare armors, it has some. Seems pretty good. The setup is generally much safer than the alternative, I find, though it's very easy to screw up if you're not cautious. Layout is far more conducive to fighting Shamblers even ignoring the fact that you only fight one.

Deimos Lab: Double Shambler fight is far, far harder, but it does have healing...that's hidden and easily missed in a casual run, and requires walking through acid to get to unless you manage some good rocket bank shots. Hiding said Supercharges seems strange. Lower end loot is breakable crates+mods, so it's random if it's better or not than Hell's Armory. Honestly I think this is pretty balanced, though the Shambler fight definitely can go out of control easily due to the open area and the fact that there's two.

The Wall: Eh. Backpack is neat but you can really get by without it, and cutting through a bunch of Hell Knights/Barons isn't my idea of fun(unless I somehow have an Onyx or Nano armor.). It's basically one subjective reward and one solid launcher, but you could probably get by with the launcher you had if you could get into The Wall at all. See others comments about there being more Missile Launchers in the game, too. Would really be a good place to put a new missile weapon if you wanted to make one.

Containment Area: More fun than the Wall. Not really that different, but I find fighting out of an enclosed situation more entertaining than fighting into a bunch of enemies. Would like it if the Backpack wasn't in an area where you can get shot by an enemy and have it destroyed(This was my unfun experience the first time I entered. There's a similar, but less easy to solve, problem with the Backpack at the Wall getting blown up by the rockets that the setup encourages you to use, but that's a much harder fix so eh.). Loot's kinda ehn to me still.

Abyssal Plains: Straight up slugfest with solid loot. Feels like a more logical place for the Missile Launcher than Wall/Containment. Standard but interesting enough. The Agony Elemental fight varies a lot depending on what it decides to do and your build, but it generally ends up not being so risky that I mind the being locked in part.

City of Skulls: Massive ammo drain and not worth it for any builds that don't have heavy AoE. Has some ammo that probably won't replenish what it cost. Skulls as rewards kinda suck unless you're planning on doing Mortuary/Limbo. Then again, a BFG works decently well for that too, I believe, and Carnage/Spider always shows up. Basically free EXP for shotgun builds and not much else. Could really use some spicing up.

Halls of Carnage: Interesting area that isn't too challenging, but has forced time pressure. Making people play outside of their comfort zone is cool. :) Loot is worth the effort. Read up on the N! version, and am rather intimidated by it, though. Definitely seems a huge spike there compared to UV.

Spider's Lair: Kinda randomly deathtrap-y. On average it doesn't seem too bad, but every time I go in I'm afraid I'll dodge a little less than I should, or that they'll get better RNG than they should. Still, the concept is interesting and the loot/EXP are good for a short but intense fight, seems like.

Unholy Cathedral: Melee builds only, they get good stuff from it. Simple enough. Yes, I know it's not melee builds only, strictly speaking, but that's way too much work for my tastes otherwise. :)

Vaults: Weird area. Basically best for those who spoil themselves, but even if you do and know how it works, and have the way to make it work, the loot's really random. Still, fine enough.

Mortuary: Death trap area with a cool reward, basically optional super area, cool enough.

Limbo: Never seem to get this. The few times I have involved passing through it invinco or nuking it. I know the layout but I can't give a good opinion on it.

Lava Pits: Ditto Limbo except I've never actually drawn this when I intended to do a bunch of lava walking. Go fig.

Mt. Erebus: Did complete this once. Decent enough for what it is, but what it is basically is less difficult and more specific preparation. Generally don't like bothering, though; the loot's mostly centered around the Lava Element, which mostly is for enabling a Full...which I often lack the other tools needed to do, and may get the tools to replace the Element randomly anyways. Works for what it is, though, which is a way of enabling Fulls without letting everyone get them easily...
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 22:47 by SageAcrin »
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GinDiamond

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Re: Opinions on new special levels needed!
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2013, 10:09 »

I like the new special levels, but I feel that the Deimos Lab needs to be rebalanced (or at least redesigned, the wierd lever placement and walls leads to much confusion of where certain enemies are coming from).

What's up with all these missile launcher rewards? Please bring back a couple BFG's and at least one nuclear plasma rifle!
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appuru

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Re: Opinions on new special levels needed!
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2013, 10:59 »

Hell's Arena: Not a new special level, but even if only for certain modes (say AoB), add some guaranteed random water generation to help dispose corpses on N!.

Military Base: West side entrance has a pretty wild design, it's really hard to tell when an enemy has LoS or not in the entrance area. Having this kind of problem in the most dangerous choke point of the level is a great way to eat a napalm rocket and die instantly, but maybe that's the point.

Phobos Lab: Need to be able to aggro nightmare demons without them biting your face off. Rockets work OK for this actually, but things get a bit unbalanced in challenge modes. Improving the rewards while keeping things as is would be cool, too.

Deimos Lab: Everything is easier to clear except the shamblers, since you can wipe out most of the enemies at the warp room where you start off, just have a little patience. In contrast, hell's armory may have cacodemons floating all around you in lava, and they can take a while to pick off. The extra gear and supercharges in Deimos Lab should be enough for the enemies when you pull the levers. The double shamblers are a problem but you should have a fresh armor, supercharge and possibly a new weapon + mods handy for them.

Abyssal Plains: Cool level, though I consider this easier thanks to the health packs and powerups. Also, who's trapping who in the middle? I *want* all those lost souls/pain elementals/agony elemental lined up in front of me so I can erase them more easily :3 There's no reason you shouldn't be ready for the middle portion considering all the stuff you find on this level, though it could be problematic depending on the challenge mode.

Limbo: Feels easier than mortuary, the lava works much more in your favor by providing less stuff to be revived (at least in the middle). Once you secure the middle you can slowly pepper either side's arch-viles to death with rockets or ammochain rapidfire without needing to draw any bridges. The possibility of reviving nightmare enemies is scary, but the map layout simply works too well in your favor. Even on N! I don't think I've died yet after clearing the initial ambush.
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grommile

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Re: Opinions on new special levels needed!
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2013, 11:39 »

Hell's Arena: Not a new special level, but even if only for certain modes (say AoB), add some guaranteed random water generation to help dispose corpses on N!.
I don't think an opinion of the form "make N! easier" is going to get much traction, somehow :)
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appuru

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Re: Opinions on new special levels needed!
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2013, 12:42 »

I don't think an opinion of the form "make N! easier" is going to get much traction, somehow :)

This isn't about making it easier necessarily. Your options are severely limited in AoB, to the point where if you want to try clearing hell's arena on N!, really you're just startscumming level 2 for some combination of medpacks/armor/berserk packs. I wouldn't mind if hell's arena were actually *harder* as long as you're given a chance to apply more strategy in Hell's Arena and rely just a little less on RNG the level before.
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dtsund

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Re: Opinions on new special levels needed!
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2013, 13:42 »

Killing stuff in doorways disposes of their corpses, and it's not hard to find a doorway in Hell's Armory.  Just sayin'.
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appuru

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Re: Opinions on new special levels needed!
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2013, 20:45 »

Killing stuff in doorways disposes of their corpses, and it's not hard to find a doorway in Hell's Armory.  Just sayin'.

Yes, I totally agree on that for Hell's Armory. :-)
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lmaoboat

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Re: Opinions on new special levels needed!
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2013, 22:40 »

For some reason, I just really dread doing chained court.
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Opinions on new special levels needed!
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2013, 03:00 »

Well, I think I played enough games to have a real idea of new levels by now.
Here's my feedback :


Regular levels :
Nice new generators. nice lava levels in hell, mixed monsters in caves, more mods... the only thing I'm not sure to like is the abundance of ammo boxes. I think more ammo is a good thing, but I often have 3 or 4 shell boxes. I think it's pretty easier to play a marksman now, too... not sure this is bad, but I think it makes reloader less useful than before (and I think it was already weaker than SoB, Fin, HR & WK)

Arena :
Nicely reworked.
Changing layout makes it more interesting, and reducing rockets/cells reward was quite necessary.
Though, I noticed AoHu can still obtain those stupid acid boots.. I'm afraid it's still a random between this and 2 great armors, including phasecheat one ? :(
Having it always on lvl2 is a good choice too, BUT, I might put it on lvl 3 for AoB.

Chain courts :
Great too.
I wondered if normal CC aren't too easy, but overall, it's nice. Also, I guess it makes skipping of Arena more valuable, which isn't a bad thing.
CC+ are a delight. probably a little harder than before (due to monster's AI, imo), but I love this new layout.

Military base :
1st impression, on HNTR : level is ridiculously easy, and tracking map is like a cheat. Also, isolated room looks quite easy to permawait and kill everyone in melee on a door, no ?
After discovering the level on UV & N!, I wouldn't say the level is too easy anymore (still easy, but comparable with Arena : some dangers remain). I'd still rework the bottom room, and probably move some elites from the right of the right section, to the left of this same section, so that you can't cornershot everything too easily.
New formers are great, but we should be able to check their weapon (at least, with look command; ideally, with adapted graphics)
 (paired with)
Phobos lab :
N! demons waiting in corridors don't seem very interesting to me. Efficent, of course, but I wonder if there is an alternative to running back to the acid room (save melee build, ofc).
2nd issue in the same level : scripted removal of envirosuit at the ambush is ridiculous...
This level's design is way too vicious for dl7 : a hard level could be good, but here, there's no way to avoid traps : N! demons idle, walls are indestructible, and ambush walls don't open until you walk in shotgun's range... wtf ?
Also, military base gives you a suit (which is a good idea), while lab tends to need using both. Maybe add a 3rd in the end room ? Really imbalanced pair atm, anyway.

Anomaly :
New lost soul completely changed the ambush. It's goot that rocket jump or phase isn't mandatory anymore.
No missile launcher yet, which gives the BB a chance to do something. Good adjustements.

The wall :
It was already too easy at dlvl7 (I nearly always went damageless, my only prerequisite was 200 shells and a few rockets). so at this level, it's a cakewalk. Boring, too easy, needs rework.
 (paired with)
Containement area :
Not very hard, but the random enemies placement and ambush trigger leaving you at a bad spot makes it way more interesting than the wall.
Just : Why is the bottom of the level unused ? :( ! And please, make this backpack indestructible.

Deimos lab :
WTF two shamblers ??? Well, considering the improved reward, it's probably rather well balanced. What I don't like is that sometimes, rewards are F & S, or one of F/S & cybercrapmor... fighting 2 shamblers for that really piss me off.
I wonder if 1st pair of levers placement isn't a bit abusive : I sometime discover 3 revenants when opening the wall, and get rocketted before I get any time to react.
 (paired with)
Hell's armory
While I think the level used to be too easy to complete damageless, I don't like random placement of enemies either : looks like I'm just rolling my shambler's head with dices...
Nice to see there's at least a (potentially) useful reward now. I just cried when I got a combat translocator ^^.
 
City of skulls :
Like anomaly, no BFG when entering is a good improvement.
Nice bullets. I won't regret cells.
WHY a 2nd missile launcher ? A napalm (or whatever else you want) could be more interesting. btw, it might be here for those who... skipped the wall xD ? Anyway, having the same reward twice is really bad. Two BFG were (way too much) useful, but 2nd missile launcher is plain useless. At the very least, change the reward if previous level was completed.
 (paired with)
Abyssal plains :
Funny level. Enough covers, but not enough to abuse them (I'd better say I didn't find the sweet spot yet, I guess), a nice fight against the elemental... looks harder than city of skulls to me, but it's ok since there is more rewards.
Beeing able to use (blood) skulls on place contrasts with city of skulls, but isn't a big problem. Also, funny to have the sheel box bundled with the level :p

Halls of carnage :
Damn, I expected to die here... didn't manage yet, but at least difficulty was increased. Still a free BFG on HNTR, but who cares ?
On UV... I must say I LOVE the remake. Really. Probably more than any other level. The time limit plays a big role, I guess.
 (paired with)
Spider's lair :
Wait, what ? paired with Halls of carnage ??? sounds completely different, and way harder to me, even with a missile launcher & tons of rockets. Also, the new layout is nice, but I think it makes rockets really hard to use...
Nice to see that cheat plasma gun has been removed, of course.

Really weird to pair such levels. If you keep it, add shells in the lair (probably not on formers, since they would be off-theme). It must be terrible to have the lair on a shotty run, currently.
In the same order of idea, I'd add a few cells in HoC. Probably not on formers either, since current level's difficulty is good. I'm not sure having a cell pack only in the lair is balanced. Sure, this isn't a vital item at all, but having one is always great, especially when coupled with a B-modded BFG.
My favorite idea remains : un-pairing those levels, and keep both. (replace lair's BFG with a nuke, phase device (for the vaults), or some other cool stuff)
You could also let the player choose between both stairs (but I don't like this one much... I'm not fond of randomness, but I don't like the idea of choosing between 2 very different levels, unless you have to choose between 2 different rewards, like "Backpack OR BFG".) Here, it would be a choice of difficulty, which would result in choosing the easiest one.

Babel :
Not much to say here, but I wonder if adding lost souls couldn't be good. Got this idea because currently, it's quite boring... it would require balancing the beast, btw.

Vaults :
Guaranteed good item is a great improvement.
Makes me think that no special level seem to guarantee a phase device... shouldn't it be one ?
Also, one change I was expecting : replace barons from lower difficulty, they wear armors...

Limbo :
The little quantity of walkable floor makes the number of enemies much lower, and easier to radarshoot, or gib with some knockback -> level easier than mortuary ? I read it was too easy with 2 BFG shots... this might be true, gotta try it.
Anyway. Mores viles means more fun ! Nightmare cacos are great too, since enemies couldn't swarm you with all this lava
Since lava can be dangerous for the player and vile's number as been raised, I think it's an excellent alternative. Different from mortuary, but still swarmy & dangerous.
Little bug : raising a bridge twice (with 2nd lever) gibs corpses on it.
 (paired with)
Mortuary :
Nothing much to say here. but I really wonder what is that assault shotgun for (and I nearly always carry a shotgun, all game long). Make it a random exotic ? mod ? phase device ?

Mt. Erebus :
Seems fairly easier than the lava pits, isn't it ?
I didn't try to phase, but I guess you'll always land on the (unique) platform, so the envirosuit is probably not as mandatory as it is in the pits. Also, non-marines used to need two if possible, but here, I'm pretty sure one will always be enough.
"summoning" little waves of monsters with the levers looks easy. only to me ? Maybe some cacos should spawn in the rigtt part of the level when you pull them ?
For me, this level is quite boring: camp the starting platform until you shot every flying thing, then enviro or phase to the right, and shoot a few monsters, then finish 3 weak waves... I prefered lava pits.
 (paired with)
Lava pits :
 Nothing to say here. I'm just glad some (too early ?) levels give guaranteed envirosuits.

Dis :
Well, I usually nuke Mastermind... the only change I noticed was the ridiculously slow attack animation. Very annoying, since runs where I fight the MM are always speedruns, and this animation cripples gameplay.
 2 (off topic) suggestions here :
 -add an option in config "don't show animations", for speedruns. Where every animation would be instant.
 -increase projectiles speed after some distance, or once they leave player's screen (they are always fired close to the player, so after about 10/15 tiles, they can't still be in sight range). This would be a partial fix, but still a first step to smoother animations.
Shouldn't JC be buffed, so that we only attack him when we really want to take a risk ?

Hell fortress :
Still too easy. I think it needs to be reworked with lava, walls, enemies...  and JC got to be a boss, not BFG fooder.
His summons could pop at smarter positions than "around him", have more variety (e.g. 1 random enemy every turn, not "8 enemies sometimes", etc.)
Anyway... I don't think skipping the mastermind should ease the fight. Doomguy is most of the time too powerful for bosses anyway, but I'm sure this could be improved.

Overall :
I think balance is rather good. Phobos lab's corridors and acid ambush really bug me, and I don't like pairing of the lair with HoC at all, but all the rest is ok. There has been a lot of sweet improvements, and only a few drawbacks.
I don't know if xp difference between some paired levels is significant, but I hope it's not too much : I got more XP on a run where I skipped UC than on a conqueror one... I hope it was due to caves or monsters distribution, of course, but I wonder. Abbyssal plains, for example, seems more XPful thant CoS. I got to calculate some numbers.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 04:11 by Evilpotatoe »
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Klear

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Re: Opinions on new special levels needed!
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2013, 06:07 »

I agree with Evilpotatoe on pretty much everything, but  especially this:

Babel :
Not much to say here, but I wonder if adding lost souls couldn't be good. Got this idea because currently, it's quite boring... it would require balancing the beast, btw.

Not only would it make the fight more interesting (and getting the Head a bit harder) but it would bring it a bit closer to the original level.

Furthermore, there would be two options: The Lost Souls die with Cybie in the same way JC's summons die on his death, or you would have to hunt them down prior to taking down the big C himself, which would add to the challenge of YAAM, which is a good thing IMO. Could be annoying and random with the soul's new behaviour, though. They have a tendency to rush to the other side of the level and get lost.
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