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[appuru]

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Adam Ring, level 3 Mancubus Warrant Officer Scout,
 committed a stupid suicide on level 2 of Hell.
 He survived 29647 turns and scored 23554 points.
 He played for 26 minutes and 23 seconds.
 He opposed the Nightmare!

 He killed 39 out of 104 hellspawn. (37%)
 He was an Angel of Max Carnage!
 He was also an Angel of Overconfidence!

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 4
  Levels visited   : 1
  Levels completed : 1

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  Longinus Diamond Badge

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ##########################======###########################
  |..0...........0..}.......======..0...hB..#.0#...}i.ii.i...
  ..........................======B..hh.....#..#...i...BR...R
  #..########.#..#.########.======########..#..#..i.i########
  ............#..#..#.......======..................^#..#....
  ............#..#..#..0....======...................#..#....
  ################.0#..#..#.======....#..#######.....#V.#..##
  ..=.....+........0+..#..#======...h.#..#.....#.....#..R...=
  ...====........>.....#..#======.....#..#.....#.....#.....#.
  #####=##.################======..####..#..#..####..#.....#.
  #......................|}.======....#..#..#..#.....#.^..|#.
  #0...............;....}..|====X=....#..#..#..#.....#..V\.#.
  ####..####..#####.;+....#.======##..#..#..#..####..#..#..#.
  ......#....=..=.........#B======....#.....#..#.===....#..#.
  ......#....0====........#..======...#.....#..#.===....#..#.
  ####..#.##############..#.======##..#.....#..#..#####.#..#.
  ......#.................#.======....#.....#..#........#....
  ....===..................B======..........#...........#....
  ####===###################======###########################
  ##########################======###########################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/50   Experience 3690/3
  ToHit Ranged +12  ToHit Melee +12  ToDmg Ranged +1  ToDmg Melee +1

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Hellrunner       (Level 2)
    Son of a bitch   (Level 1)

  HR->HR->SoB->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   nothing
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   minigun (1d6)x8 [160/200]
    [c] [ Boots      ]   nothing
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   Longinus Spear (8d8)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] combat pistol (3d3) [15/15]
    [b] assault shotgun (7d3) [6/6]
    [c] combat knife (3d5) (B)
    [d] large med-pack
    [e] 10mm ammo chain (x250)
    [f] shell box (x100)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    None

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    3 former sergeants
    3 former captains
    16 demons
    16 lost souls
    1 Angel of Death

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  On level 1 he invaded the Unholy Cathedral!
  On level 1 he found the Longinus Spear!
  He then destroyed the Unholy Cathedral!
  On level 2 he finally committed a stupid suicide.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : out of vision
 You hear the scream of a freed soul! You hear the scream of a freed soul! You
 hear the scream of a freed soul!
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : out of vision
 You hear the scream of a freed soul! You hear the scream of a freed soul!
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : out of vision
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : out of vision
 You hear the scream of a freed soul!
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : out of vision
 You have no more ammo for the minigun!
 Argh!!! Lava! You die!... Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 61 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 46 of those were killed.
 2 of those were killed by something unknown.
 7 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 2 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 4 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 1 killed the bitch and survived.
 3 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I unlocked AoOC, and I've read about using throwing knives to kill the AoD on max carnage, so I figured why not just dual angel? On my first try I had a bulk mod and the red stairs to the Unholy Cathedral in plain sight. Without a bulk mod I have no idea just how long it would take.

Not much else to say, I tried to continue but barely as I was starting I got annihilated by a former sergeant sneaking behind a corner. I got launched into the middle of a lava river.. x)

[LuckyDee]

Still, Longinus Diamond in 1 try.... impressive.

How did you deal with the souls and demons, though?

[appuru]

Still, Longinus Diamond in 1 try.... impressive.

How did you deal with the souls and demons, though?

You can kill the souls in one hit with the combat knife (not sure if it requires bulk mod or not, actually), so as long as you deal with 1 at a time you're good.

The demons took a lava bath outside :-)

[LuckyDee]

The demons took a lava bath outside :-)

Ah, clever. With HR2 this shouldn't be much of a problem, indeed.

[Radagast]

Clever choice. I might try it myself. Seems like a fast diamond.

I assume nuking is not an option for such badges.

[Klear]

Cool. I should try that someday.

Dual angels make some of the challenges easier, I suppose.

[thelaptop]

Maybe we should nerf that.

* thelaptop ponders evilly

[LuckyDee]

Someone should buy you a T-shirt with that text printed on it...

[appuru]

Maybe we should nerf that.

* thelaptop ponders evilly

I guess this is a more philosophical thing. Should the hardest badges have a strict luck requirement? Should they just be a puzzle for the player to figure out? (Dragonslayer is one of these) Or should they be based on skill as much as a roguelike would allow with all the random elements?

I think it should be changed, personally. Removing AoOC from the choices after AoMC should be enough. This way, using AoOC would be too impractical as a shortcut to attempt Longinus Diamond, and if they want to use AoMC they have to learn a sound strategy for reaching the later levels first.

[Matt_S]

Removing AoOC from the choices after AoMC should be enough.

That seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[appuru]

That seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Hmm, you're probably right.. some people may want to do AoOC+AoMC after all :P I haven't given this too much thought admittedly. Maybe the AoD could get "enraged" after repeated ranged knife throw attacks and something bad happens? :o)

[thelaptop]

We can just nerf badges from Dual-Angels, except for the Angelic stuff.  Some people want a challenge, but none of them said anything about wanting to cheese their way to achievements, no?

* thelaptop grins evilly

[Radagast]

Ok I just did the exact same thing. Just got the diamond.
It was not exactly as you say though.

Obviously, I died 4 times right on the first level. In the end the RNG gave me luck in terms of spawning a pain elemental & lost souls 1st hell level.
It's the only kind of monster you can actually kill as a lvl 1 scout with minigun/assault shotgun. All other times I got fried before getting to the cathedral.
I also found 2 combat knives a bulk and an agility mod on the level:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Rahul Chandra,
 level 4 Hell Knight 1st Lieutenant Scout,
 was incinerated by an arch-vile on level 2 of Hell.
 He survived 62214 turns and scored 34081 points.
 He played for 1 hour, 33 minutes and 24 seconds.
 He opposed the Nightmare!

 He killed 177 out of 211 hellspawn. (83%)
 He was an Angel of Max Carnage!
 He was also an Angel of Overconfidence!

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 4
  Levels visited   : 1
  Levels completed : 1

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  UAC Star (silver cluster)
  Longinus Platinum Badge
  Longinus Diamond Badge

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ##===##########################=====#######################
  ..===.#......+.................=====......#.#.............#
  ..===.#########+########=######=====#######.#.............#
  ..===.+.+..........=..+.====...=====......#.+............0#
  ..===.#.#.........===.===#==###=====###+#A#.#.............#
  ..===.#.#.........==.=#======.=====.......#.#...X*}.......#
  .===..#.#......==...^.#....^..=====.......#######}#########
  ===...#.#...i==.=....i#.......=====...0.../...|}.}||......#
  ===...#.#...====.=....#......B.=====......#......}||".....#
  ===...#.#...===}=0i...#....##..=====.....h#..hO}}|}|..0...#
  ===...#.#ii..==ii.....#....##...=====.....#....h|}..}.....#
  .===..#0#...===...i.../.........=====.....#.....V|}.}...0.#
  =====##.#^...==B=...iB#.##...^..=====.....#.......|.|.}..=#
  0=====#.#...======B...#.##.##...==>==.....#......V}...}|==#
  .===..==#...i..==...".#....##...=====.....s....s.......|.=#
  .===..#=#..i.i.\......#........=====0...R.#..&.....|....=.#
  ..===.#.#.............#...0....=====......#........===.=..#
  .===..#.#.............#........=====......#........=====..#
  =====.#.#i.........i..#........=====......#........====...#
  ##===##########################=====#######################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/50   Experience 6374/4
  ToHit Ranged +12  ToHit Melee +12  ToDmg Ranged +2  ToDmg Melee +2

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Hellrunner       (Level 2)
    Son of a bitch   (Level 2)

  HR->HR->SoB->SoB->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   nothing
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   assault shotgun (7d3) [3/6]
    [c] [ Boots      ]   nothing
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   Azrael's Scythe (9d9)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] combat pistol (3d3) [15/15]
    [b] minigun (1d6)x8 [176/200]
    [c] combat knife (2d5)
    [d] combat knife (2d5)
    [e] rocket (x6)
    [f] large med-pack
    [g] agility mod pack
    [h] 10mm ammo chain (x250)
    [i] shell box (x58)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    None

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    7 former humans
    5 former sergeants
    5 former captains
    16 demons
    134 lost souls
    9 pain elementals
    1 Angel of Death

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  On level 1 he invaded the Unholy Cathedral!
  On level 1 he found the Azrael's Scythe!
  He then destroyed the Unholy Cathedral!
  On level 2 he finally was incinerated by an arch-vile.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 You see : a former human (unhurt) | a pistol (2d4) [3/6] | pool of blood | [ m
 You see : floor
 The former human dies. The lost soul dies. You hear the scream of a freed
 soul! You hear the scream of a freed soul! You hear the scream of a freed
 soul! There is 10mm ammo (x100) lying here.
 You have no more ammo for the assault shotgun! There is 10mm ammo (x100)
 lying here. There is 10mm ammo (x100) lying here.
 The arch-vile raises his arms! The arch-vile raises his arms! The former
 sergeant hits you. You dodge! The missile hits the former human. The former
 human dies. The former sergeant dies. The former sergeant dies. There is a
 chaingun (1d6)x4 [40/40] lying here.
 There is 10mm ammo (x100) lying here.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : Rahul Chandra (severely wounded) | 10mm ammo (x100) | pool of blood
 You see : out of vision
 You hear the scream of a freed soul! You die!... Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 26 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 19 of those were killed.

 7 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 5 killed the bitch and survived.
 2 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------



By the time I got to Angel of Death I had a bulked combat knife, and 2 normal combat knives. No armor for the agility mod which was a shame...
I also had 2 HR traits, and 2 SoB traits. Which means more dmg.

Now I don't know what you did man, but the angel of death could not be that easily outrunned.
I was barely faster and had to do the whole level circle just to throw those 3 daggers and get them again.
I had to do that around 5-6 times at least before he changed status from almost unhurt to barely scratched. The same happened for all the next statuses, which practically meant I must have done the level circle probably more than 50 times to kill it...
Felt like a hundred times to be honest.

It took almost 1 hour and a half... 1hour and a half of my life, running a circle around the whole UC. lol...
It needed a donkey's stubborness and godlike patience...

I have no idea how you did it in less than half an hour with just one bulked knife, and not even SoBx2....
Also for some stupid reason my bulked knife got destroyed when I killed AoD with the final throw... Imagine that...

Naturally entering the next level meant almost an instant death.

PS : The wiki needs fixing. Outrunning an angel of death with 2 HR and +10% from scout ability, should not be possible if he does indeed have 150% speed.

[Matt_S]

PS : The wiki needs fixing. Outrunning an angel of death with 2 HR and +10% from scout ability, should not be possible if he does indeed have 150% speed.

How so?  It gives you 0.64 seconds per move.

[Radagast]

How so?  It gives you 0.64 seconds per move.

Doesn't doomguy have 100% speed by default?

If so 100% + 10% (scout ability) + 30% (2 HR points) = 140% which is less than the 150% the AoD seems to have according to the wiki.

Do I misinterpret the information??

[appuru]

I have no idea how you did it in less than half an hour with just one bulked knife, and not even SoBx2....
Also for some stupid reason my bulked knife got destroyed when I killed AoD with the final throw... Imagine that...

Naturally entering the next level meant almost an instant death.

PS : The wiki needs fixing. Outrunning an angel of death with 2 HR and +10% from scout ability, should not be possible if he does indeed have 150% speed.

I was circling inside the demon room for the most part. There's no need to do laps outside the cathedral. I considered doing that at first but I figured if you outran the AoD, why not just do the same in a smaller space? Just don't get too greedy and attack him when he's too close.

I definitely outran him with Scout class + 2xHR, I wasn't wearing armor though.

[Radagast]

I definitely outran him with Scout class + 2xHR, I wasn't wearing armor though.

Nah had the exact same setup and it was not really possible since I gained a tile every 6-7 tiles or so when I was just moving, and picking up the dagger also costs 2tiles of AoD movement usually.
Throwing it costs almost another tile of movement.

So quite impossible to do it inside  since the small space doesn't help much, he can corner you there.
Unless you did it in a different way. Perhaps you preferred to do it melee instead of throwing the knife?
I thought that would be a huge risk and I avoided it like the plague.

[ZicherCZ]

Doesn't doomguy have 100% speed by default?

If so 100% + 10% (scout ability) + 30% (2 HR points) = 140% which is less than the 150% the AoD seems to have according to the wiki.

Do I misinterpret the information??

That's not how speed works. "10% faster" actually means "10% shorter time", and effects are applied one after other. So, this would mean: 1s  minus 10% Scout = 0.9s minus 30% from HR2 should mean 0.63s, which corresponds to about 159% monster speed - and you're fine.
Check the wiki, Game mechanics section for more details if interested.

[Radagast]

That's not how speed works. "10% faster" actually means "10% shorter time", and effects are applied one after other. So, this would mean: 1s  minus 10% Scout = 0.9s minus 30% from HR2 should mean 0.63s, which corresponds to about 159% monster speed - and you're fine.
Check the wiki, Game mechanics section for more details if interested.

Damn it thanks. That explains it. You learn something new every single day in this forum.

[AlterAsc]

We can just nerf badges from Dual-Angels,

Somehow i got a feeling that i suggested it in beta1 or beta2 topic.
Noone believed me at that time though. >_<

As for scout bonus: this is the only bonus that is applied another way. Scouts have 0.91s not 0.9s action time of actions that take 1s.

[ZicherCZ]

As for scout bonus: this is the only bonus that is applied otherwise. Scouts have 0.91s not 0.9s action time of actions that take 1s.

Ah, there's the 0.64s vs 0.63s difference explained.

[appuru]

Ah, there's the 0.64s vs 0.63s difference explained.

I know I'm not crazy xD it would take a while, but non-running move actions would let me create distance from the AoD after several tiles. As a rough estimate I made sure to have at least 2 tiles of distance before throwing a knife. I never got hit.


Though this is probably considered cheesing the diamond badge, I'm glad there's some discussion on it. :D I still feel kinda bad I wasnt around for 9.9.7 testing, now I feel like I would have at least helped in ironing out badge requirements. :(

[ZicherCZ]

Well, consider the low-damage medals that also exist. It is possible to grab a Conqueror and a Destroyer Diamond (= N! AoMC with no more then 50 HP damage taken throughout the whole game) - but this simply does require such "cheesy" tactics.

I think it's not that finding the working tactics inside the way the game engine works would be "cheesing" - but I agree, discussion is always welcome.

[Matt_S]

For anyone who's curious, the reason the Scout's speed bonus works differently from other bonuses is that it actually changes the player's "speed", i.e. rate of "energy" regeneration which is the way varying enemy speeds change.  The other bonuses instead decrease the time it takes to perform whatever action.  The wiki has some information on the mechanics of energy and speed, but it seems outdated a bit since it doesn't mention the Scout's speed.

[Ashannar]

We can just nerf badges from Dual-Angels, except for the Angelic stuff.  Some people want a challenge, but none of them said anything about wanting to cheese their way to achievements, no?

* thelaptop grins evilly

I think this is the best approach.