Chaosforge Forum

  • May 24, 2022, 22:57
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.



Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [All]

Author Topic: Corner shooting oddities  (Read 5766 times)

grommile

  • Elder
  • First Lieutenant
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 205
  • mmm beer
    • View Profile
Corner shooting oddities
« on: April 07, 2013, 08:09 »

I have noticed (while trying to complete Phobos Base Entry on HMP AoMC) a Really Unpleasant Thing about cornershooting: It appears that transparent walls are ignored by the line-of-fire selector, so you can't use trees as shelters to cornershoot from.
Logged
0.9.9.7: 22-15-10-0-0 22/43 62/67 (P 349, D 43/67) 36/40 (B19 A12 M5) Arch-Vile CPT

Armorer Platinum and Diamond should be abolished; the Dragonslayer taboo deserves every scrap of mockery it receives.

MaiZure

  • Marketing/PR Ops Lead
  • Greater Elder
  • Major General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 827
  • Retired 1-Star General (.993)
    • View Profile
    • Project repository
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2013, 08:14 »

Well since cornershooting is actually a bug - I would call this the first steps of a corrective action

:P
Logged
Hell Knight 1st Lt. (.997)
[22/13/9/2/0]

LuckyDee

  • Sound Wizard
  • Grand Inquisitor
  • General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1516
  • High Caliber Consecrator
    • View Profile
    • LuckyDeeIndustries
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2013, 08:22 »

cornershooting is actually a bug

Eep - it is? Try and imagine the game without it...
Logged
[0.9.9.7G] Current: Hell Knight 1st Lieutenant [20/12/4/0/0/0]
High: Arch-Vile Lt. Colonel [25/21/12/2/1/0]

grommile

  • Elder
  • First Lieutenant
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 205
  • mmm beer
    • View Profile
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2013, 08:29 »

Well since cornershooting is actually a bug - I would call this the first steps of a corrective action
There are at least two medals whose very existence implies cornershooting has been declared a feature.
Logged
0.9.9.7: 22-15-10-0-0 22/43 62/67 (P 349, D 43/67) 36/40 (B19 A12 M5) Arch-Vile CPT

Armorer Platinum and Diamond should be abolished; the Dragonslayer taboo deserves every scrap of mockery it receives.

yaflhdztioxo

  • Programmer
  • Elder Chaos Guard
  • Captain
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 298
  • Lost Sole
    • View Profile
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2013, 08:34 »

Cornershooting was a bug.  It's no longer considered that since so much of DoomRL's gameplay is based on it.

That said, there ARE oddities with the LOS algorithm.  Attempts to fix them have been made but not always successfully.
Logged

errol

  • Private FC
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2013, 00:18 »

Not a big fan of corner shooting. Depending on build, it can eventually become unnecessary, but then that's generally because eventually you start laughing at everything in sight.  But before that, it's just too strong, skewing things in favor of damage/speed traits even more than they already would be. Oh well.
Logged

Matt_S

  • Elder
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 394
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2013, 13:14 »

There was a beta version in 0.9.9.5 (and from what I heard, back in 0.9.9.4 as well) that had symmetric line of sight.  I think the general consensus was that it was a pretty large difficulty increase.
Logged

errol

  • Private FC
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2013, 13:43 »

It would be. you'd have to rebalance the game to make it work.

As it stands, if I get THAT hell's arena (you know which one I'm talking about), on a lot of builds the game is called right there.  Because without corner shooting, that is pretty much that. Granted, could salvage by just leaving the level after the first wave. It just dominates the first half of the game too much for my tastes, and that balance feels like a contributor to RNG death. I wouldn't want to touch UV without corner shooting / radar shooting though.
Logged

SageAcrin

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 73
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2013, 09:23 »

Yeah, I'm normally a big proponent of symmetric LoS, but the asymmetries are both thematic(plenty of FPS have had times you can shoot enemies that can't see you), fairly easy to grasp(draw a line between yourself and the enemy) and fairly necessary on higher difficulties.

You'd essentially have to overhaul the entire game, it feels like. I think a good corner shooting tutorial would be more valuable than doing that, at this stage.
Logged
Arch-Vile Brigadier General, 25|18|15|7|1|1 (0.9.9.7)
(10k enemies/65~ Cyberdemons from Cyberdemon, 1 Diamond from Mjr. General)

Solarn

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2013, 15:09 »

Not a big fan of corner shooting. Depending on build, it can eventually become unnecessary, but then that's generally because eventually you start laughing at everything in sight.  But before that, it's just too strong, skewing things in favor of damage/speed traits even more than they already would be. Oh well.
So then what would you suggest? Cornershooting is one of the two main mechanics that let you avoid getting hit and the other one (running) is purely luck-based unless you get Dodgemaster every game. I for one don't like the idea of a DoomRL where you are forced to duke it out with every enemy.
Logged

Ashannar

  • Elder
  • Second Lieutenant
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 187
  • Shottyhead Aficionado
    • View Profile
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2013, 17:49 »

I consider corner-shooting to be the mechanic that makes it unique from other roguelikes.
Logged
Hell Baron Major (0.9.9.7) 22 18 12 1 0 0

MaiZure

  • Marketing/PR Ops Lead
  • Greater Elder
  • Major General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 827
  • Retired 1-Star General (.993)
    • View Profile
    • Project repository
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2013, 18:12 »

So then what would you suggest? Cornershooting is one of the two main mechanics that let you avoid getting hit and the other one (running) is purely luck-based unless you get Dodgemaster every game. I for one don't like the idea of a DoomRL where you are forced to duke it out with every enemy.

...And don't forget about Radar-shooting (using weapons with ranges further than your LOS to scout/kill enemies)
Logged
Hell Knight 1st Lt. (.997)
[22/13/9/2/0]

Evilpotatoe

  • Backer
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
  • Lost Soul corpse
    • View Profile
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2013, 18:22 »

Yeah, I think it's a very good mechanic, in the end.

I hate the concept of asymetric lines of sight, but without cornershooting, we'd have to radarshoot all the time instead... (damn, makes me think I gotta try a gunrunner nanomachic something-launcher)

Still, I think LOS can be fixed & improved :
 - fix enemies attacking you from squares you don't see
 - show enemies LOS (something telling you, at least, if a particular monster can see you would be a great improvement)
 - fix shotgun spread, or show affected tiles when aiming, possibly with degrading colors to illustrate damage dropoff -> big improvement in accessibility, and more ergonomic.
 - Oh, and fix this one, btw http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6287.0.html
Logged
Badges - [26/26/26/22/9/2] - 42/43

Ashannar

  • Elder
  • Second Lieutenant
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 187
  • Shottyhead Aficionado
    • View Profile
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2013, 19:03 »

Quote
show enemies LOS (something telling you, at least, if a particular monster can see you would be a great improvement)

The graphical version has this already. It's not accurate though.
Logged
Hell Baron Major (0.9.9.7) 22 18 12 1 0 0

yaflhdztioxo

  • Programmer
  • Elder Chaos Guard
  • Captain
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 298
  • Lost Sole
    • View Profile
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2013, 20:40 »

Quote
- fix enemies attacking you from squares you don't see
Not counting AIs that will blindfire you like cybie, I only know of this happening in some uncommon but not unheard of scenarios involving multiple doors and shotguns.  We tried to fix it once :/

Quote
- show enemies LOS (something telling you, at least, if a particular monster can see you would be a great improvement)
There's a debug mode for that actually :).  But no, you must learn the safe spots for yourself.

Quote
- fix shotgun spread, or show affected tiles when aiming, possibly with degrading colors to illustrate damage dropoff -> big improvement in accessibility, and more ergonomic.
Again you gotta learn that for yourself.  Damage dropoff is easy enough to get a feel for.

Quote
- Oh, and fix this one, btw http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6287.0.html
...okay, I got nothing on that.
Logged

Ashannar

  • Elder
  • Second Lieutenant
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 187
  • Shottyhead Aficionado
    • View Profile
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2013, 21:07 »

Not counting AIs that will blindfire you like cybie, I only know of this happening in some uncommon but not unheard of scenarios involving multiple doors and shotguns.  We tried to fix it once :/

It's not just shotguns. It's everything. You're right that it only seems to happen through doorways, but it can happen through a single door. An easy way to test this is to open the leftmost door in the Military Base and corner shoot from it. You'll get shot at by former humans you cannot see.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 21:13 by Ashannar »
Logged
Hell Baron Major (0.9.9.7) 22 18 12 1 0 0

MaiZure

  • Marketing/PR Ops Lead
  • Greater Elder
  • Major General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 827
  • Retired 1-Star General (.993)
    • View Profile
    • Project repository
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2013, 21:32 »

It's not just shotguns. It's everything. You're right that it only seems to happen through doorways, but it can happen through a single door. An easy way to test this is to open the leftmost door in the Military Base and corner shoot from it. You'll get shot at by former humans you cannot see.


Single door case:
It's most common when an enemy is positioned right inside of an open door and the player is a few steps away from the door. Player LOS get's stopped at the door but the enemy is not.
Logged
Hell Knight 1st Lt. (.997)
[22/13/9/2/0]

Solarn

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2013, 01:00 »

...And don't forget about Radar-shooting (using weapons with ranges further than your LOS to scout/kill enemies)
That's only really useful with a shotgun with a focused or normal blast though and it can backfire horribly if there's an enemy just outside your LOS.
Logged

errol

  • Private FC
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2013, 13:00 »

I radarshoot with shotguns constantly in my games.  The only real downside is hitting barrels and destroying items, and it's not enough of one to stop.

I mean, this is the entirety of hell's arena. Radar shoot around until you find a cacodemon or baron, drag it to a corner, and cornershoot it to death. Really, I do the same thing for the whole game up until the enemies start becoming easy/run low on shells/etc. Build doesn't matter, actually, I do this on every build. Melee, Pistol, Shotgun, Chaingun. It seems to be the optimal strategy to me.  I guess I don't really consider corner shooting or radar shooting to be what makes DoomRL unique. What I thought made it unique when I first started playing was the music, the sound effects, the weapons (almost all ranged), the class and trait system, mods/assembles, special levels, saved data between games (schematics, medals), etc.   There's a whole lot that is unique about this game.

I would rather than corner shooting have something more intuitive (as opposed to having a tutorial to explain it) or explicit. I think corner shooting is less interesting because almost all the time it's a no-brainer to do it. Just the math on how long it takes to get to a corner, how likely you are to get hit in getting to the corner, and how long it will take you to kill the enemy leads to me heading for the corner. I don't know what exactly might be nice to have instead. I agree that you can't just remove it, because there needs to be some form of strategy in the game. Maybe if enemies with ranged attacks that could blow up walls would attack the corner. Or maybe just something to even out fighting without a corner a bit. Reloading while moving? Another thought that interests me on LOS is non-radial LOS. it was an FPS, maybe you could only see in a cone.
Logged

Solarn

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2013, 13:46 »

Yes, and if this was an FPS you could dodge the enemies' shots in real time instead of having to wait your turn. The advantages and disadvantages of each format balance out.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [All]