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Author Topic: Corner shooting oddities  (Read 4420 times)

grommile

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Corner shooting oddities
« on: April 07, 2013, 08:09 »

I have noticed (while trying to complete Phobos Base Entry on HMP AoMC) a Really Unpleasant Thing about cornershooting: It appears that transparent walls are ignored by the line-of-fire selector, so you can't use trees as shelters to cornershoot from.
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MaiZure

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Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2013, 08:14 »

Well since cornershooting is actually a bug - I would call this the first steps of a corrective action

:P
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LuckyDee

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Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2013, 08:22 »

cornershooting is actually a bug

Eep - it is? Try and imagine the game without it...
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grommile

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Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2013, 08:29 »

Well since cornershooting is actually a bug - I would call this the first steps of a corrective action
There are at least two medals whose very existence implies cornershooting has been declared a feature.
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yaflhdztioxo

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Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2013, 08:34 »

Cornershooting was a bug.  It's no longer considered that since so much of DoomRL's gameplay is based on it.

That said, there ARE oddities with the LOS algorithm.  Attempts to fix them have been made but not always successfully.
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errol

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Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2013, 00:18 »

Not a big fan of corner shooting. Depending on build, it can eventually become unnecessary, but then that's generally because eventually you start laughing at everything in sight.  But before that, it's just too strong, skewing things in favor of damage/speed traits even more than they already would be. Oh well.
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Matt_S

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Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2013, 13:14 »

There was a beta version in 0.9.9.5 (and from what I heard, back in 0.9.9.4 as well) that had symmetric line of sight.  I think the general consensus was that it was a pretty large difficulty increase.
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errol

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Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2013, 13:43 »

It would be. you'd have to rebalance the game to make it work.

As it stands, if I get THAT hell's arena (you know which one I'm talking about), on a lot of builds the game is called right there.  Because without corner shooting, that is pretty much that. Granted, could salvage by just leaving the level after the first wave. It just dominates the first half of the game too much for my tastes, and that balance feels like a contributor to RNG death. I wouldn't want to touch UV without corner shooting / radar shooting though.
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SageAcrin

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Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2013, 09:23 »

Yeah, I'm normally a big proponent of symmetric LoS, but the asymmetries are both thematic(plenty of FPS have had times you can shoot enemies that can't see you), fairly easy to grasp(draw a line between yourself and the enemy) and fairly necessary on higher difficulties.

You'd essentially have to overhaul the entire game, it feels like. I think a good corner shooting tutorial would be more valuable than doing that, at this stage.
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Solarn

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Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2013, 15:09 »

Not a big fan of corner shooting. Depending on build, it can eventually become unnecessary, but then that's generally because eventually you start laughing at everything in sight.  But before that, it's just too strong, skewing things in favor of damage/speed traits even more than they already would be. Oh well.
So then what would you suggest? Cornershooting is one of the two main mechanics that let you avoid getting hit and the other one (running) is purely luck-based unless you get Dodgemaster every game. I for one don't like the idea of a DoomRL where you are forced to duke it out with every enemy.
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Ashannar

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Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2013, 17:49 »

I consider corner-shooting to be the mechanic that makes it unique from other roguelikes.
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MaiZure

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Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2013, 18:12 »

So then what would you suggest? Cornershooting is one of the two main mechanics that let you avoid getting hit and the other one (running) is purely luck-based unless you get Dodgemaster every game. I for one don't like the idea of a DoomRL where you are forced to duke it out with every enemy.

...And don't forget about Radar-shooting (using weapons with ranges further than your LOS to scout/kill enemies)
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2013, 18:22 »

Yeah, I think it's a very good mechanic, in the end.

I hate the concept of asymetric lines of sight, but without cornershooting, we'd have to radarshoot all the time instead... (damn, makes me think I gotta try a gunrunner nanomachic something-launcher)

Still, I think LOS can be fixed & improved :
 - fix enemies attacking you from squares you don't see
 - show enemies LOS (something telling you, at least, if a particular monster can see you would be a great improvement)
 - fix shotgun spread, or show affected tiles when aiming, possibly with degrading colors to illustrate damage dropoff -> big improvement in accessibility, and more ergonomic.
 - Oh, and fix this one, btw http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6287.0.html
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Ashannar

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Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2013, 19:03 »

Quote
show enemies LOS (something telling you, at least, if a particular monster can see you would be a great improvement)

The graphical version has this already. It's not accurate though.
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yaflhdztioxo

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Re: Corner shooting oddities
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2013, 20:40 »

Quote
- fix enemies attacking you from squares you don't see
Not counting AIs that will blindfire you like cybie, I only know of this happening in some uncommon but not unheard of scenarios involving multiple doors and shotguns.  We tried to fix it once :/

Quote
- show enemies LOS (something telling you, at least, if a particular monster can see you would be a great improvement)
There's a debug mode for that actually :).  But no, you must learn the safe spots for yourself.

Quote
- fix shotgun spread, or show affected tiles when aiming, possibly with degrading colors to illustrate damage dropoff -> big improvement in accessibility, and more ergonomic.
Again you gotta learn that for yourself.  Damage dropoff is easy enough to get a feel for.

Quote
- Oh, and fix this one, btw http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6287.0.html
...okay, I got nothing on that.
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