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[Moddan]

It always kinda bugged me that Ironman doesnt have any follow up traits. Also all this pussy dodging or shooting before they shoot feels kinda lame. Why not take it like a man and then pay the favour back? So here is my bad attempt on IM based traits.


Die-hard(max. 2 in standard game, up to 3 for higher levels)

You can shrug off a tremendous amount punishment - if you see it coming. For each level of Die-hard you get +3 protection, -25% knockback and +15% to all resistances when receiving damage during wait turn. If it doesn't knock you off your feet you receive a free action afterwards.

Requires Ironman (2)

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Duck and Cover(Marine)

The years of combat experience finally pay off! The combined efford of your reflexes and scar-tissue keep you safe from most serious injury. Now you always receive the Die-hard protection(but no free action) unless you attack or move while running/being tired. Furthermore all damage is halved during a wait turn and enemies doing a melee attack are slightly slowed down.

Requires: Die-hard(1), Intuition(1)
Blocks: Hellrunner, Brute, Shottyman

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Freight Train(Scout)

For each tile(maximum equals your Die-hard level) you run before attacking you receive a +50% melee damage bonus. Furthermore you don't receive any damage penalty when executing a melee attack while running. Finally getting hit during a wait turn while being tired has a chance to switch you back into running mode. Just the ass-kick you need to get your engine restarted.

Requires: Hellrunner(2), Brute(1), Die-hard(1)
Blocks: Finesse, Dodgemaster, Berserker

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Quartermaster(Technician)

Even under the heaviest fire you were in charge of keeping your company's gear in top shape and you were good at it. Really good. Now you use your skills for own equipment and all damage to your armor and boots is halved. You also always receive full protection and resistances if your stuff is above 0%. As an extra your expertise not only allows you to add one more pack when modding armor or boots, you can also use sniper and firestorm mods with interesting results.

Requires: Die-hard(1), Wizkid(1), Level 6
Blocks:  Hellrunner, Reloader, Triggerhappy

Firestorm on armor -> small Berserk chance(when not tired) depending on received damage(before Die-hard kicks in)
Firestorm on boots -> +50% fire resistance, to maximum of 95%

Sniper on armor -> shortened Light-Amp Goggles effect when using Large Health Globe or Large Medipack
Sniper on boots -> +25% dodge chance

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Changed it a bit.

[ZicherCZ]

Ooohkay.

"Also all this pussy dodging or shooting before they shoot feels kinda lame."

Then I believe you did not understand the way DoomRL works. Or did you really want to stand and get shot at in Doom itself?

"
Die-hard(max. 2 in standard game, up to 3 for higher levels)

You can shrug off a tremendous amount punishment - if you see it coming. For each level of Die-hard you get +3 protection, -25% knockback and +15% to all resistances when receiving damage during wait turn."

So you are suggesting a trait that will heavily reduce damage, but not to zero values, in exchange for not being allowed to do anything at all for the protection to last - the moment you shoot or move, the protection is gone. So your health is slowly chipped away for nothing.
Totally useless.

"Duck and Cover(Marine)

The years of combat experience finally pay off! The combined efford of your reflexes and scar-tissue keep you safe from most serious injury. Now you always receive the Die-hard protection unless you move or attack. Furthermore all damage is halved during a wait turn and enemies doing a melee attack are slightly slowed down."

The same case as the previous trait, for the same reasons. Again, totally useless.

"Freight Train(Scout)

For each tile(maximum equals your Die-hard level) you run in a straight line towards your target you receive a +50% melee damage bonus for the next attack. Furthermore you don't receive any damage penalty when executing a melee attack while running. Finally getting hit during a wait turn while being tired has a chance to switch you back into running mode. Just the ass-kick you need to get your engine restarted."

So if the enemy stands anywhere else than in one of the cardinal or diagonal directions, it's no bonus for you.
The last thing, somewhat similar to Berserker kick-in, is probably the only somewhat useful aspect of this trait.
But still, fairly useless.

"Quartermaster(Technician)

Even under the heaviest fire you were in charge of keeping your company's gear in top shape and you were good at it. Really good. Now you use your skills for own equipment and all damage to your armor and boots is reduced to a third. You also always receive full protection and resistances if your stuff is above 0%. As an extra your expertise not only allows you to add one more pack when modding armor or boots, you can also use sniper and firestorm mods with interesting results. "

While the concept sounds interesting, effectively tripling your armor durability seems overpowered to me, and being even more whizkiddy than Whizkid doesn't look too logical in connection to Die-hard (and is overpowered as well). So, no again.

I don't want to sound insulting or off-putting, but sorry - the title of your original post is pretty accurate.

[AlterAsc]

First of all i repeat what was mentioned in previous post - standing and doing nothing is not going to help you. Thus trait is flawed by design.
Another thing - currently we have different master for each weapon type and one general. Having masters specifically centered around one advanced trait seems off.

[SageAcrin]

I honestly think the trait system is pretty good as it stands, a few Masters and Juggler being odd aside.

*Curiously goes over the list of traits.*

Two tanking basic traits(Ironman, Tough as Nails), one dodging(Hellrunner), two generalist(more or less) offensive traits(more or less) (Finesse, Eagle Eye), one shotgun-oriented but generalist trait(Reloader), one generalist but rapid oriented one(SoB), one pistol and only pistol oriented(SoG), one melee oriented(Brute).

One pistol(Dualgunner), rapid(Triggerhappy), shotgun/rocket launcher(Shottyman), melee(Berserker), tanking(Badass), and dodging(Dodgemaster) and three general(Intuition, Whizkid, Juggler). Intuition and Whizkid are generally about avoiding damage and dishing it out/tanking respectively but neither can be said to be a clean split. Juggler's pretty unique and hard to pigeon-hole.

Two melee masteries, three pistol masteries, two shotgun masteries, two rapid masteries, one each of heavily melee/shotgun/rapid oriented masteries that still function well with other weapons, outside of the required skill sinks that don't do anything for other weapons(Malicious Blades/Fireangel/Cateye), one theoretically generalist skill that in practice mostly runs to rapid fire(Scavenger), another that does the same thing but with Shotguns(Gunrunner, though it's not as extreme as Scavenger), and one skill that generally sucks but is mainly tanking oriented(Survivalist).

I dunno, outside of a lack of a love for high explosive oriented skills, it seems fine. Clearly we need rocket/BFG oriented masteries and lower skills. Raise the accuracy of explosives and your resistance to getting caught in AoEs as a basic skill! Triple your rocket stack size for Marine Mastery! Automatically reload your rocket launcher/BFG after every shot for Scout! Do...something technical and strange with your high explosives, I don't know, Technician is hard. :)

(These are not totally serious suggestions, but more high explosives oriented gameplay would make for a weird challenge run and for some interesting options. Angel of Explosions: Rocket Launcher/BFG only; It's like a Pacifist run, only you blow way more things up.)

Definitely doesn't seem inordinately dodging oriented, regardless.

(Also, I generally agree with the comments made on those skills suggested-too generally useless in the first three cases, too generally weird in the last case. Whizkid already does a very good job of enabling tank builds anyways...)

[Klear]

I dunno, outside of a lack of a love for high explosive oriented skills, it seems fine. Clearly we need rocket/BFG oriented masteries and lower skills. Raise the accuracy of explosives and your resistance to getting caught in AoEs as a basic skill! Triple your rocket stack size for Marine Mastery! Automatically reload your rocket launcher/BFG after every shot for Scout! Do...something technical and strange with your high explosives, I don't know, Technician is hard. :)

But we have three explosives masteries - Cateye, Fireangel and presumably Gunrunner! I admit I didn't try Gunrunner yet and don't have much experience with Firangel, since most of my games were in 996 where it was bugged, but Cateye is absolutely perfect for explosives, as long as you can get an infinite supply of rockets.

What's the drawback of Cateye compared to Int2? You can't see through walls. This gets negated once you can blow the walls up with impunity. Get a level or two in EE and there won't be a lot that can withstand you.

[Moddan]

Oh well, changed the suggestion a bit.

[grommile]

But we have three explosives masteries - Cateye, Fireangel and presumably Gunrunner! I admit I didn't try Gunrunner yet and don't have much experience with Firangel, since most of my games were in 996 where it was bugged, but Cateye is absolutely perfect for explosives, as long as you can get an infinite supply of rockets.

Gunrunner: run duration increased; when running, moving fires your weapon at the nearest enemy if any are in sight.

It's a terrible match for explosives, but a very good match for the elephant gun basic assembly.

[AlterAsc]

Knocked off your feet as knocked back?
Still unnatural. Stand and get hit in order to instantly do something? There's no logic behind such actions.
I would understand if it was something like defensive stance where you forgo movement in order to get maximum armor and then shoot from that position , but that's basically how MEn works.

[Moddan]

Well, the idea behind is to use the wait function in the right moment to lower the incoming damage and receive other benefits. Just like with dodging timing and positioning are the deciding factors here.

[ZicherCZ]

Well, the idea behind is to use the wait function in the right moment to lower the incoming damage and receive other benefits. Just like with dodging timing and positioning are the deciding factors here.

I still can't see a reason why I would want to take lower damage, when I can dodge and take no damage at all.

[Moddan]

Because in some situations you can't dodge because of the wall behind you and AoE damage. Getting other enemies caught in friendly fire while oneself is relatively protected might be desireable too. Taking a mancubus double tripplet without getting knocked around in dangerous terrain and shrugging off part of it actually sounds to be a good idea in some situations.

The marine mastery allows to temporally escape from a fast melee opponent thanks to the slowdown and it also grants protection while reloading, using devices, opening doors or moving cautiously(the last might be op, maybe halved extra protection here). The scout gets his running restarted with the occational defensive wait and he can use the mastery to dish out heightened melee damage while being on the run. The tec... Well, I don't consider the armor/boot damage reductions that powerful because of onix mods kinda making them obsolete.

[SageAcrin]

But we have three explosives masteries - Cateye, Fireangel and presumably Gunrunner! I admit I didn't try Gunrunner yet and don't have much experience with Firangel, since most of my games were in 996 where it was bugged, but Cateye is absolutely perfect for explosives, as long as you can get an infinite supply of rockets.

What's the drawback of Cateye compared to Int2? You can't see through walls. This gets negated once you can blow the walls up with impunity. Get a level or two in EE and there won't be a lot that can withstand you.

Well, Triggerhappy isn't exactly the best explosives heavy skill, and banning Reloader/Shottyman is rough. Combine that with Cateye basically being good with everything(Even a high enough power normal/narrow shotgun, like Elephant Gun or a heavily modded Assault Shotgun) and I'm more inclined to chalk that up to it being a really nice all-rounder skill.

Good point on Fireangel and Gunrunner, though. You can still do explosives heavy play if you really want, it's just a shame that it's not really formalized into a separate playstyle.

(On a related note, I kinda want a rapid fire angel challenge. Yes, it would be kinda easy.)

[MaiZure]

(On a related note, I kinda want a rapid fire angel challenge. Yes, it would be kinda easy.)

Angel of Dakka!

[grommile]

(On a related note, I kinda want a rapid fire angel challenge. Yes, it would be kinda easy.)

It would have more than usually front-loaded difficulty, since shotguns are king (and chainguns are terrible) in the early game.

[SageAcrin]

It would have more than usually front-loaded difficulty, since shotguns are king (and chainguns are terrible) in the early game.

It would also be more/less (relatively) difficult based on the difficulty, since the higher difficulties also have Plasma Rifles earlier.

I think it could be a lot of fun, honestly.