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Author Topic: [N!|AoB/AoOC|11%|YAVP] I sorta wonder how possible that Angelic is...  (Read 2603 times)

SageAcrin

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--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 E, level 4 Arch-Vile Br. General Scout,
 defeated the Mastermind at the City of Dis.
 He survived 1668 turns and scored 72325 points.
 He played for 2 minutes and 29 seconds.
 He opposed the Nightmare!

 He killed 38 out of 339 hellspawn. (11%)
 Who gave him the ticket to Hell, anyway?
 He was an Angel of Berserk!
 He was also an Angel of Overconfidence!

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 4
  Levels visited   : 3
  Levels completed : 0

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  Mastermind's Brain

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  ##################................................#########
  #################...............####...............########
  ################.......####.....####.....####.......#######
  ###############........####.....####.....####........######
  ##############.........####.....####.....####.........#####
  #############..........####..............####..........####
  ############............................................###
  ############....####............................####....###
  ############....####............................####....###
  ############....####............................####&...###
  ############....####............................####....###
  ############............................................###
  #############..........####..............####..........####
  ##############.........####.....####.....####.........#####
  ###############........####.....####.....####........######
  ################.......####...X.####.....####.......#######
  #################............%..####...............########
  ##################................................#########
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 60/60   Experience 4146/4
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +4  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +6

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Ironman          (Level 1)
    Hellrunner       (Level 1)
    Brute            (Level 2)

  HR->Bru->Bru->Iro->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   nothing
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   chainsaw (4d6)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   nothing
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   nothing

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] combat knife (2d5)
    [b] large med-pack
    [c] large med-pack
    [d] large med-pack

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Bullet     - internal 60%   torso 60%   feet 60% 
    Melee      - internal 60%   torso 60%   feet 60% 
    Shrapnel   - internal 60%   torso 60%   feet 60% 
    Acid       - internal 60%   torso 60%   feet 60% 
    Fire       - internal 60%   torso 60%   feet 60% 
    Plasma     - internal 60%   torso 60%   feet 60% 

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    3 former humans
    1 former sergeant
    4 former captains
    8 imps
    1 demon
    8 lost souls
    3 barons of hell
    1 arachnotron
    1 mancubus
    2 arch-viles
    3 nightmare imps
    1 nightmare cacodemon
    1 nightmare arachnotron
    1 Spider Mastermind

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  On level 1 he invaded the Unholy Cathedral!
  He fled the Unholy Cathedral seeing no chance to win.
  He left level 3 as soon as possible.
  On level 4 he was foolish enough to enter Limbo!
  He managed to escape from Limbo!
  He left level 5 as soon as possible.
  He left level 6 as soon as possible.
  On level 6 he entered the Lava Pits.
  He decided it was too hot there.
  Then at last he found Dis!
  On level 8 he finally defeated the Mastermind.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 taste blood!
 You need to taste blood!
 You need to taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
 taste blood!
 You need to taste blood!
 You are hit! You are hit! You are hit! You are hit! You are hit! You are hit!
 You need to taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
 taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
 taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
 taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind dies. Congratulations!
 You defeated the Spider Mastermind! Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 335 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 284 of those were killed.
 1 of those was killed by something unknown.
 4 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 22 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 24 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 3 sacrificed itself for the good of mankind.
 18 killed the bitch and survived.
 3 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

This is basically me messing around with one of the fastest win tricks in the game.

Simply get enough invinco(disclaimer: This is a lot of invinco. This run got three Hell:1 Invincos and rode on it for literally the entire game. I forget if I found a fourth...), learn how to pacifist your way through massive volleys of juggling rockets, and use the Chainsaw to carve up the Mastermind. Simple! Not very likely to happen. But simple! It was something fun to muck with, since it's such a hilarious thing to be able to do.

The thing is, this massively high RNG strategy, executed pretty fast, took two and a half minutes. Is Speedrunner Angelic, which has to run triple the area, including several forced long walks(Entrance, Phobos Anomaly, gotta get up to Mastermind...let's assume Cyberdemon starts within melee distance, oh and since it's a normal run you need to visit Chained Court to pick up a Chainsaw or else it takes way longer. Or massively blast your odds downward, by requiring a rare melee weapon to spawn on the way. Or requiring two nuclear devices/a Trigun.), actually possible? Even with literally chained stairs within LoS(With a handy Invinco as needed before Cyberdemon/Mastermind) as you come down them?

Oh, sure, you can get Phases in the right spots to cut the walks, too. But it's still going to take a bit to get through the entrance. And as bad as the odds already are, how likely is that set of lucky Phases? Or maybe they'll be Homings, let's lower the odds even more.

I admit, my computer's not cutting edge, and some small amount of lag may be taking place, and having to cut through Limbo probably added thirty seconds here(Limbo's not that long of a walk, when you're invinco...but I did get shot at a lot.). But I'm legitimately wondering if Speedrunner Angelic is actually doable.

RNGs usually have limitations that prevent one in a billion shots from actually occuring, and it certainly feels like it's in that area(this took four or five hundred runs. Don't let my total deaths fool you, I just reset everything that obviously had no chance. Still only took a few hours though.).

As such, I'm curious to see if anyone can get this down to a minute(optimally, under would be best for proof of concept). If that's possible, then Speedrunner Angelic probably is. Good luck with that, though. This is still funny in its own right. :)
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 21:37 by SageAcrin »
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Arch-Vile Brigadier General, 25|18|15|7|1|1 (0.9.9.7)
(10k enemies/65~ Cyberdemons from Cyberdemon, 1 Diamond from Mjr. General)

Klear

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Were you playing console or graphical? Console is a lot faster and recommended for speedrunning.
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Arch-Vile Mjr General [24/19/18/8/2] (0.9.9.7)

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Radagast

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I'm starting to believe that these dual angel combos with overconfidence, actually ruin the game rewards and experience, especially the challenges that are supposed to be truly difficult...
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[0.997G] Hell Baron, Lt. Colonel
SP:56/67, ASB:36/40, Medals: 28/43, Badges: 20|17|12|5|2|0
Games: 37 -- Wins: 0/2/3/5/0, best game so far: AoSh/UV/YAAM
Now trying: Arch-Vile/Colonel (11k kills, 150 melee kills, 3 Gold to get)

Klear

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Yeah, though it is tempting, I don't try to gain badges in dual angels, since it's bound to get nerfed in the next version it would compel me to reset my stats again, something I don't really want.
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Arch-Vile Mjr General [24/19/18/8/2] (0.9.9.7)

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Dude... we need to change your forum handle from "Klear" to "Klear Nukem".

Evilpotatoe

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Yep, mistakenly got 2 platinum & 2 diamond yesterday this way... I just wanted a quick game !
I guess I'll end up using a VM, so I can hold N! runs & earn badges properly.

About the angelic, my best record is 2:33... on ITYTD.
I tried console a little, since animations speed on graphical version is terrible, but it didn't cut much time. Anyway, playing in ascii is... well, an experience, for sure, but I really don't enjoy it.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 05:30 by Evilpotatoe »
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grommile

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Yeah, though it is tempting, I don't try to gain badges in dual angels, since it's bound to get nerfed in the next version it would compel me to reset my stats again, something I don't really want.
I reset my stats every version as a matter of principle; something always changes enough to justify it.
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0.9.9.7: 22-15-10-0-0 22/43 62/67 (P 349, D 43/67) 36/40 (B19 A12 M5) Arch-Vile CPT

Armorer Platinum and Diamond should be abolished; the Dragonslayer taboo deserves every scrap of mockery it receives.

Klear

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I think I've so far reset my stats every other version. 997 was quite a change with the new special levels and stuff, so I reset it. Most of the badges and stuff I've earned in previous version requires the same effort to get in the next one. I have, occasionally, unofficially "reearned" some badges where requirements changed so I wouldn't feel bad about having them.

What I really hate to lose is my progress on Technician and Armourer badge series, especially the former, since I gather the schematics the hard way - by experimenting and grinding Hell's Armoury/Deimos Lab.
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Arch-Vile Mjr General [24/19/18/8/2] (0.9.9.7)

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Radagast

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I reset my stats every version as a matter of principle; something always changes enough to justify it.

Compare angel of darkness for instance in  latest two versions... Unbelievable difference challenge-wise.
To be honest I preferred the 996 version in regards to that specific Angel challenge. Now it became awfully masochistic and meaningless, just a waste of time to even try it... Game is supposed to be fun above all, some challenges seem to have forgotten that basic principle, unfortunately.
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[0.997G] Hell Baron, Lt. Colonel
SP:56/67, ASB:36/40, Medals: 28/43, Badges: 20|17|12|5|2|0
Games: 37 -- Wins: 0/2/3/5/0, best game so far: AoSh/UV/YAAM
Now trying: Arch-Vile/Colonel (11k kills, 150 melee kills, 3 Gold to get)

Klear

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Wait, what has changed? I tried to play it on n! a couple of times in 996 and gave up soon, and now I've gotten as far as Deimos Lab in a few tries, though I assumed it's because I've improved quite a bit.

The only thing that's tougher now (IMO) is getting Hunter diamond, since you can't just waltz through Military Base and Phobos Lab the way you could through The Wall.
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Arch-Vile Mjr General [24/19/18/8/2] (0.9.9.7)

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Evilpotatoe

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Arrrrgh
just tried 0.9.9.7 AoD, and indeed, looks like... a weird design choice.

The only change I noticed is the full fog of war, but it's enough for me to forget about this challenge.
While I don't consider it's normal to have some informations in fog of war (like resurecting corpses, which diseappear), completely removing level memory looks completely retarded to me...
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Klear

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Hmm... I didn't realize that the full fog of war is a new thing, but I thought it's doing great things for the atmosphere. Also, in 996, getting Cateye completely neutralized the short LOS effect and you were left simply with a nightmare! game with fewer enemies. I guess not every challenge is for everybody.
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Arch-Vile Mjr General [24/19/18/8/2] (0.9.9.7)

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Dude... we need to change your forum handle from "Klear" to "Klear Nukem".

Rajhin

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Chickens. That was how AoD worked prior to .994 (or .993?). And yes, there was a level layout that was later removed from the game - tight maze, so... :>
 I should try AoD/AoMr for marksman angelic, looks like it wouldn't be too hard with cateye. The probles as always to survive first levels and to pass anomaly.
Anyone know how AoD respawn interacts with N! respawn?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 08:53 by Rajhin »
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20/26 4/17
33/50

SageAcrin

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I'd kinda like the map to still remember powerups and stairs, at the very least. Thematic as it may be as it is, it's really grating on me as well, and too many AoD challenges revolve around high kills for me to not want to clear out floors...at which point I need to recall where those stairs were after clearing out a floor, or where that heal was...

Also, if maps don't actually do anything, they probably shouldn't spawn. (The challenges that specifically revolve around you not being able to use powerups are one thing, but AoD's point isn't that in theory.)

Quote
I'm starting to believe that these dual angel combos with overconfidence, actually ruin the game rewards and experience, especially the challenges that are supposed to be truly difficult...

Mmm, you can abuse it for a few cheap Platinum and Diamonds, yes, but often enough it's still going to take skill.

I may have blasted through the game there, but I also only got 11% kills. Basically every challenge takes a fair deal of kills, and I could have been just doing maingame runs and trying to get sub-20 instead for an actual Badge.

The main things it helps with is Longinus(Not actually major, current strategies allow anyone that gets to it on N! to potentially beat it, if you really, really know what you're doing and are willing to spend tons of time), Scavenger(Gives you multiple, faster cracks at a challenge that otherwise is entirely luck. Then again, you have less resources to work with to make those count.), and maybe Marksmanship(You can probably get an easy Diamond here if you specifically get invincos+Trigun. I saw Trigun once in all of those tries and I died before I could reach it, incidentally. Part of the trick for this is actually getting the fast kill before invinco wears off and L4 pistol setups are bad at that.).

Otherwise, you still need a fair deal of skill, at least for N!...or to really rig up a massive RNG string, which will take a lot of time anyways(Like, say, getting Jackhammer and invincos at the right time.). And you could have gotten really good RNG for any run. As you can see, I literally netted nothing but a dinky medal I already had for this trick.

The main difference as I see it is that you skip Anomaly, and Anomaly as it stands strikes me as way out of place as a threat level(requires specific answers as much or more than Cyberdemon but is far earlier and you're given far less time to deal with it.). But Angel of Confidence lets you do that more safely anyways, if you wanted to do that.

Regardless, it seems an easy fix. Just have AoOC count only for AoOC badges and non-specific-playthrough badges. It takes the behavior back to previous, sounds like.

Quote
Were you playing console or graphical? Console is a lot faster and recommended for speedrunning.

Graphical. That's part of why I'm curious to see if someone else can pull this off under a minute; I don't think it's that big of a speed difference, because I'm not actually sure how it can be, but hey, I'd like to be proven wrong. :)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 09:15 by SageAcrin »
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Arch-Vile Brigadier General, 25|18|15|7|1|1 (0.9.9.7)
(10k enemies/65~ Cyberdemons from Cyberdemon, 1 Diamond from Mjr. General)

Klear

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Graphical. That's part of why I'm curious to see if someone else can pull this off under a minute; I don't think it's that big of a speed difference, because I'm not actually sure how it can be, but hey, I'd like to be proven wrong. :)

Oh, it is a difference. On console, you can run across the whole map in moments. I just tried and running across the map took roughly 7 seconds with graphics, 2 seconds on console.

I've been able to get most of the speedrunning badges with graphics, but this one might require console to pull off.
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Arch-Vile Mjr General [24/19/18/8/2] (0.9.9.7)

Quote from: thelaptop
Dude... we need to change your forum handle from "Klear" to "Klear Nukem".

Evilpotatoe

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About AoD, since I agree it kinda sucks with CatEye :

Why not make it a REAL nightmare, and prevent gibbing of corpses, instead of a ****** map amnesia ?
If corpses become explosions-proof, make efforts to avoid stacking, and slip off doors & fluids, I think it will make the challenge WAY more interesting.

Kill percentages asked for badges would need to be lowered, btw.

About map, removing informations you shouldn't have out of LOS (corpses respawn, medkit pickup, etc..) is still needed, but it shouldn't be N! or AoD specific : fog of war mechanism just has to be improved, with a layer of what player knows, only updated in LOS or with some events (special lever pulled..).
I guess this takes time to develop, but I think it'd be worth it.

Shouldn't I post this in the suggestions section ?
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