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Author Topic: Impossible to reach the exit  (Read 9977 times)

Matstaal

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Impossible to reach the exit
« on: April 19, 2013, 08:26 »

I was playing an Angel of Light Travel game on HMP. Scout with duals and hellrunner, leveling to Gun Kata.

Than, on level 12, this happened:



This wasn't the result of barrels exploding; the level was generated this way.

I didn't have a Homing Phase or Environment Suit in my inv, and there were none in the level. Also, I was wearing tactical boots so no fire resistance.There was no way for me to reach the level exit.

My only option was to exit to the Abyssal Plains, for which I was totally unprepared and where I died horribly.

Is this lava river without a bridge intentionally build into the level generator? Is the generator coded that at least one of the (2) exits is reachable?

cheers
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Rajhin

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2013, 09:09 »

cheers
You could switch you tactic to run and walk over the lava. It hurts, but better than death.
And yes, it's a bug of level generation. Exits dont play any role here.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 09:10 by Rajhin »
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thelaptop

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2013, 11:08 »

Technically you are on islands in a lava river.

And no, bridges don't seem to be generated.  Feature, not a bug.  Time to start carrying that environment suit that you keep discarding.
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Rajhin

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2013, 11:29 »

Feature, not a bug.
And that is why i never posted any of my generation_failure screenshots.
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2013, 12:12 »

Acid bridge over a pool of wood.
Where's the problem ?
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LuckyDee

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2013, 12:21 »

Acid bridge over a pool of wood.
Where's the problem ?

Good one :)

Seriously though, I think Matstaal's and Rajhin's first example could be accepted as feature, regardless of the progammers' intentions, but the acid example (plus one of my own which nobody officially responded to yet) should be eradicated on grounds of being an eyesore at the very least.

Time to start carrying that environment suit that you keep discarding.

And don't forget to nerf them.
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thelaptop

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2013, 12:35 »

Nerfing not confirmed at this point.  Environment suit is underused as at now.
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LuckyDee

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2013, 12:44 »

Wow. And here I was thinking you had an exceptionally selective case of Tourette's...
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SageAcrin

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2013, 16:19 »

1/100 or less shots don't make people carry envirosuits.

I just tank it and shrug at my lost Medkit or Phase Device. Which take as much inventory space as the envirosuit would have. It is unbelievably rare that you'll be in a situation that you'll eat more damage than that.

If you want people to actually carry envirosuits(as opposed to using them on the spot), have them buff body resistance to the acid and fire you're going to get bombarded with when you try to cross a large open area(namely, a lava/acid river), with no way to stay out of LoS besides careful radar shooting to lure enemies into range, and little guarantee that you've gotten all of them.

Bonus points if it buffs plasma, too.

It's still not that great then, but I can't think of a better defense against, say, a "mess" floor than that, if it had those kinds of resistance buffs, and it certainly fits.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 19:05 by SageAcrin »
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Klear

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2013, 02:26 »

Nah, I think it's good there are places where you have to "get wet", as it not only makes envirosuits more important, but foot protection as well.

I guess it's more sensible to protect your feet than wear tactical boots on AoLT now...
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shark20061

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2013, 06:35 »

If you want people to actually carry envirosuits(as opposed to using them on the spot), have them buff body resistance to the acid and fire you're going to get bombarded with when you try to cross a large open area(namely, a lava/acid river), with no way to stay out of LoS besides careful radar shooting to lure enemies into range, and little guarantee that you've gotten all of them.

Surprise!  It actually does increase body acid and fire resistances!
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SageAcrin

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2013, 08:55 »

*Checks*

Oh.

25%. I see.

So...not enough to keep you from still taking more damage crossing in that situation than you would playing safer.

Small wonder I never noticed.

I'm not asking for a portable Berserk here, but it really needs more than that to actually be usable for dangerous crossings. Since, for non-dangerous crossings, you can keep another pair of boots instead.

Edit:

To expand on this vaguely brushoff answer; It doesn't knock enough off Hell Baron's damage(about 3 points) to stop them from ripping armor to shreds/generally killing you in an open area. It will keep you from getting damaged notably by Mancubi/Archviles/Revanants, as long as you have fully intact Red Armor...but it won't keep them all from knocking you around like a pinball while you try to cross, or neutralize the damage to your armor.

And it doesn't resist enough to keep you from getting heavily damaged in any other situation(Damaged red armor, armor lower than red, armor without fire resistance).

Oh, I'm sure there's some exceptions. You can use it to drastically reduce the damage to...er...Gothic Armor, say. But they're very small niche exceptions. And if you're crossing the lava in a Gothic Armor you probably deserve your horrible death by repeated 1 damage anyways.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 09:08 by SageAcrin »
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Klear

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2013, 09:25 »

The purpose behind the envirosuit is to be able to walk across hurtfloors without damage, not to supplement your armour, you know.
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SageAcrin

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2013, 10:18 »

Which makes it redundant with high protection/armor boots.

(Unless you're no damaging, I suppose. That's a pretty narrow niche, though.)

It is infinitely easier to make it a limited buff that, in passing, makes it good at crossing lava/acid with enemies around, than it is to try to force enough crossing of acid/lava(through RNG map generation of required crossings) so that Envirosuit carrying would be a good thing, without randomly creating unwinnable runs where you draw four large acid rivers early and die.

It's very low odds right now to get maps that require heavy damage from terrain crossing. That's a good thing; It's way too hard to balance without creating frustrating deaths("How was I supposed to survive that? I haven't even seen an Envirosuit yet/used them all up!"). But it does mean that people don't carry Envirosuits a lot.

And even if they did, why would you carry them over a pair of, say, Fireproof Plasteel, which will work for far more crossings? (Honestly, Plasteel's usually enough.)

Personally, I didn't think that was an issue; I've played Dungeon Crawl, and I'm used to all sorts of items having ridiculously narrow niches in order to water down the item generation system a bit.

But if people do, doing an overhaul of boots and terrain generation and item generation to make Envirosuits more useful seems harder than making them somewhat better at doing things besides terrain crossing.
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raekuul

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2013, 12:40 »

So the basic issue here is that you're a... well, a moving target, but an easily-targetable moving target while you're crossing those streams, and the fact that you have to sacrifice an inventory slot for it.

...never mind the fact that you should be switching tactics for crossings like that anyway, whether you have boots/envirosuit/lava element/memory hacking or not.
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2013, 12:51 »

Raising protection to something non OP (35% ?) might be a good idea, but atm, the 2 major reasons why I almost never use envirosuits outside of the lava pits are :
 -You don't need them to cross a few tiles of lava, and they are nearly useless for a fight. Most probable real use is such buggy level cases.
 -They are rare ! Which means I won't waste one to cross a river of acid unless I got one to waste. Now that a suit is given at dlvl 7, I tend to keep it until the lava pits. In several games, I didn't found any... make it more common !
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Klear

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2013, 14:19 »

I use them regularly, and usually use up all suits I find in a given game. I suppose there are different playstyles. They seem fine the way they are to me.
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White Rider

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2013, 14:49 »

Phobos Lab has two guaranteed suits and Military Base also has a guaranteed suit. You get one or the other, so you can definitely leave Phobos with at least one suit, and maybe more from a vault or perhaps even natural spawn.

As for using them, I usually save them for other special levels. I usually use one for Hell's Armory, but for the similar Deimos Lab, I find running through that vat of acid to be a better decision than using an envirosuit. And I'm probably part of a small population who prefers using a phase device for Lava Pits/Erebus...
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2013, 15:11 »

Phase device is probably very efficient for Mt. Erebus, but is really random for the lava pits. It's all about reliability (which I value a lot).
I stopped taking the supercharge from HA. I always try getting shambler's head now anyway, so I'm not supposed to need an excess of HP. For the lab, atm, I just blow up the walls. Collateral destruction of soulspheres is likely to happen, btw :p ... or I just go through 3 tiles of acid, if I really need one.

@Klear
I often use the ones I find in levels, like powerups, but just rarely carry them.
Also, I think it screws intuition, like berserk, which is a shame.
They are not bad, but they are just not worth taking one slot either... (except for lava pits, or probably for AoHu-like challenges)
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Matstaal

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2013, 09:12 »

big discussion that spawned from my post

to clarify: I was playing Angel of Light Travel. With normal playthroughs, I usually carry around one Enviro Suit, especially when I don't have a (homing) Phase Device. Ofcourse, on AoLT it's very difficult to devote a slot. The speed bonus increase might make up for it, though. Next time I'll try running.

Thanks
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LuckyDee

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2013, 11:45 »

big discussion that spawned from my post

That tends to happen yeah, with so many dedicated players around. But since it's (very nearly always) good natured and constructive talk going back and forth, I personally think this is great, both for the game and the community.
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Matstaal

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2013, 12:59 »

o yes, it's both constructive and in good manner. glad to be a part of it
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Nick

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2013, 13:55 »

Another map gen bug: on "Walls here seem tough" levels all crates are tough as well :) I've tried to shoot a crate with my Burst Minigun [P] playing Angel of Max Carnage + Ao100. Usually it blows all crates away, but I couldn't open even a single crate there.
BTW, Burst Minigun [P] + Ammochain is soooo imba :( I mentioned that in the Balance Suggestion thread.
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Sambojin

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2013, 22:33 »

From the given examples, the exits aren't impossible to get to, just unlikely. Running does wonders, but so do envirosuits. Dying in DoomRL due to lack of equipment isn't exactly uncommon, in fact, it's common to all roguelikes. Isn't a medikit just equipment that's useless until you need it? Same with most things really. On the AoLT example, it's pretty legitimate to die in that way, not having niche equipment (or hardly any "normal" equipment either) is the nature of the challenge.

I'd love if envirosuits got a buff, but 25% fire/acid is actually quite nice. Better than nothing anyway. I'd actually rather that they didn't green-screen you for their duration. I know it was in the original Doom (was it?), and it's very iconic of them, but I'd try and use them all the time if it wasn't a hassle in text-mode to use them. A 25% carryable fire/acid resistance buff + I can walk across rivers and barrel pops with no downside than an inventory slot used? Most people would think that's pretty good if it wasn't for the green-screening effect.

As an aside and for another way of crossing acid/lava rivers, you could always rocket-jump across. You just have to wonder if you'd take more damage crossing by foot than the jump will do to you. It depends if there's enemies firing at you on which is better, depending on your build/items. So we have rocket-jumps (common but painful), phases (common but random), homing phases (uncommon), envirosuits (rare), lava elements (unique), and invulnerability globes (situational). That's not including boots, medikits, tele-staffs, running, zerk skulls, zerk packs, rockets for wall clearing and all the other ways you can make it easier on yourself to get across the damn rivers. You might occaisionally get caught out, but there's plenty of ways not to take too much damage.
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Nick

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2013, 02:08 »

I've seen a half-level wide "river" without a bridge, caused by the same bug. It's not the same as short gaps or cave rivers. Wearing full Inquisitor set, I didn't care and explored the separated room. Nothing interesting, but "what if there was the exit?" came to mind immediately.
I didn't complete AoLT yet but I already figured out one slot is always for Suit/HoPhD. It also allows to pull all switches, having benefits compensating the fact you can't carry a spare armor and more medikits.
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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2013, 02:40 »

This thread's got me thinking about how I'm going to get Lava Silver Badge.
(For the record, Lava Silver requires clearing either Mt. Erebus or Lava Pits on Angel of Impatience)

And I think I've narrowed it down to hoping that I get Spider's Lair so I can clear that out, get a guaranteed pair of plasteel boots and then hope for a B mod and a T mod before Hell-6. That's a lot of hoping.

...Am I the only person nowadays who bothers making fireproof boots? I like having tac boots too, but...Well, some things have their purposes in life, you know...
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Rajhin

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2013, 03:39 »

This thread's got me thinking about how I'm going to get Lava Silver Badge.
(For the record, Lava Silver requires clearing either Mt. Erebus or Lava Pits on Angel of Impatience)
Just make a lava boots. This will require some luck with onyx in armory/lab, but remember that being damageless there doubles your chances.
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tdef

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2013, 03:44 »

or cerberus, doesnt require rare mods but 2 wiz levels
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Impossible to reach the exit
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2013, 05:13 »

Quote
Most people would think that's pretty good if it wasn't for the green-screening effect
So true...

I often skip zerk packs too, most of the time cause it breaks intuition, but it's so ugly & boring anyway...
Couldn't the effect be just a little more moderate ? The green screen wasn't ugly in doom, and didn't reduce your perception.
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