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[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Today Berserk! got bashed on rec.games.roguelike.misc by a couple of people for being repetetive, boring, and unimaginative, and a bad game at all. I'll quote the original post:

Ok, I was silent on the issue up to this point, but now I've got to say something unless Kornel would think that he is a god of RL scene or something. To simply put it, Berserk sucks. I think it is one of the worst RLs of 2006, especially considering it was made by the author of DoomRL and DiabloRL (which are excellent). With all the hype I simply cannot understand why people like it.

There is one dungeon (or rather, open field), hordes of typical monsters (I think there's 5 types of monsters in total) - the difference between them being purely cosmetic: one hits harder, one is slower, one shoots. That's basically it. Now that wouldn't be a problem if the game was short. No, it is too painfully long as the main character has a whopping 100HP and can restore his full HP several times. That means it takes hours to get killed unless you die from boredom before that - because there isn't much to do. The ranged weapons suck: a blast of a rocket launcher just scratches more strong monsters, other weapons are even worse. So it's basically all melee. Now, there is a feature that you can go berserk when you have low HP. Which looks and behaves exactly the same as in Crawl or DoomRL. The setting is apparently related to some Berserk manga (of which I never heard before), but it doesn't influence the game in any way. It could've easily been set in Transformers or Star Wars or whatever universe: just rename monsters and weapons and you're done. That's all: no redeeming features found. And that's a pity, because I expected something at least as good as DiabloRL, which was also made in 7 days. Instead we get an improved version of that 1drl with zombies and it's even less fun.

I think it was a case of 'I love DoomRL so anything that Kornel does must be great'.

I played Berserk once then got half way through a second game and quit because of boredom.  The gameplay, while simple, was good for a 7drl but because there was no overall goal for the me to aim at I lost interest very quickly.

(if you want to argure about the above points, please do that on rgrm!)

As much as I'd like to completely disagree, I still need to note that many of the reasons presented by the author of that post are valid. As it is, Berserk! in the endless modes (Endless/Massacre) is pretty much boring. The problem with those modes is that they are endless. And they will stay that way, for this is one of the major design decisions (Campaign mode however WILL have something of a "ending" -- definitively not a "win" tough ^_^).

There are two problems with an endless game:

• You need to end it sooner than the player gets bored (my own impression was that the game had made a good length here, but maybe it should be shorter -- that is you should die earlier on average)
• You need to provide variety during the gameplay.

The first one is a question to you guys, the second one is a request for ideas.

How to make the endless gameplay more interesting?

Let me state tough, that the form will stay the same -- Massacre is a one field battle to the death, Endless is a day after day battle with no plot whatsoever.

Any ideas? Write them here, even if they are just hunches -- we may come up with something together!

[Blade]

I already said that i like Endless game, and it don't seems boring to me. Also Endless mode isn't so pointless, because you have some advancement after every night, and every next night becomes harder, and you face new monsters that are not similar to others. Remember Crimson Land - it's the same gameplay as Massacre, but with experience and levels. There are NO landscape at all in it. Gameplay there don't have any point too. They have 5 or 6 types(but many subtypes) of not so different monsters, even less than you have now. But CL is a successfull commercial project. And it's not boring to play one game there for half of an hour. It holds by quantity of weapons, it holds by quantity of monsters, it holds by it's Campaign,  and by it's perk system. So, as i understand, interest of gameplay in such endless games can be obtained by quantity of everything. Quantity of monster types, quantity of skills(maybe you can add here some traits in future), quantity of landscapes. All of this comes in time. I don't think that game after that need to be shorter than it is now. On the contrary if you have new monsters that appears on every next 2[3;4] levels, it must be longer than it is. Now the length is exactly enough to see Wraiths and phasehounds, and not to be bored.

What about second - i already told you about second.)) You need new monsters(you already have tread for this and LOTS of ideas), new skills and traits(maybe i can try to help here), and new landscapes(it's your work)).

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Ok, a few ideas:
-- make terrain more important -- add water, lava, add beings that can only move in those, make moving on road faster than on grass, find a use for trees, make terrain specific monsters.
-- add themed monster sets -- like snow monsters, lava/ash monsters, forest monsters -- that will be completely disjoint with the normal sets

What do you guys think?

[Blade]

-- make terrain more important -- add water, lava, add beings that can only move in those, make moving on road faster than on grass, find a use for trees, make terrain specific monsters.

This will add some strategic element, so it won't be just running around all map, with big crowd of monsters after you.

-- add themed monster sets -- like snow monsters, lava/ash monsters, forest monsters -- that will be completely disjoint with the normal sets

Themed types will do the trick with mobs, who appeares on every level - Beasts, Bulldemons, Mandagores, Imps. It will somehow vary enemies, and you won't feel sick from same b and B on every level. I don't think that we need 4 different types of Wraiths - they appeares appriximately 3 times per game, rarely more. The same with Defiler. And i can't imagine, how skeletons can differ from each other, if they appeares on different landscapes.

[Styro]

Being able to improve your character adds a lot to the game. However, I never feel like my character is really improving. No matter how many skills I take, it still seems to take forever to kill an M.

Perhaps giving the player more points to play with so he has more of a sense of improvement would help. Of course you would have to ramp up the difficulty of the newer monsters to even it out. But the earlier monsters should be easier to kill as the player gets more skilled and it just doesn't seem to make much difference right now.

For example, if the average game last 4-6 days that means I can only improve 2 or 3 stats once (2 points each) or Dex once (4 points). How much of a difference are those going to make? In my experience the answer is, "Not much." Having more of a sense of improvement would help that.

The other possibility would be to have more flexibility in the weapons. Allow the player to choose how many knives, etc they want each day (so if I really like Crossbow I can take all crossbow ammo instead of any cannon ammo). This could also allow for the possibility of weapon-specific skills. You could also include different kinds of melee weapons. Some of this may already be intended for the campaign mode, I don't know.

[Igor Savin]

"The setting is apparently related to some Berserk manga (of which I never heard before), but it doesn't influence the game in any way".

Pffft. May I kill them?

(rest of response will go to rgrm)

"Perhaps giving the player more points to play with so he has more of a sense of improvement would help."

I do agree. Waiting for 4 days to improve Strength... Maybe I'm a wimp, but that's cruel.


"-- add themed monster sets -- like snow monsters, lava/ash monsters, forest monsters -- that will be completely disjoint with the normal sets"

It's like "Forest Imp", "Desert Imp", "City Imp" or "Forest Spirit", "Desert Rat", "City Bandit"?

"make terrain specific monsters"

Yep, that'd be fun.


"Being able to improve your character adds a lot to the game."

Oh yes...

"You could also include different kinds of melee weapons"

Yessh... Actually, I was going to experiment with this one after "Progressive" game mode was implemented for Berserk... so after final 0.8 is released and sources are included, it won't be a long time until the first "experimental", "non-berserkish" branch appears, which, of course, might supply vanilla BRL with features, if it by chance manages to actually include valuable ones.

Are the skill\trait suggestions needed at the moment, or you have enough of them with time being an issue?


"And i can't imagine, how skeletons can differ from each other, if they appeares on different landscapes"

Bowmen for Forest, Swordsmen for City, Macemen for snow... Range vs Speed vs Power.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

"The setting is apparently related to some Berserk manga (of which I never heard before), but it doesn't influence the game in any way".

Pffft. May I kill them?

(rest of response will go to rgrm)

:D

"Perhaps giving the player more points to play with so he has more of a sense of improvement would help."
I do agree. Waiting for 4 days to improve Strength... Maybe I'm a wimp, but that's cruel.

I will cut down the cost of Strength/Dexterity/Endurance by half in the next version. I hope that it will not render Willpower useless tough :/.

"-- add themed monster sets -- like snow monsters, lava/ash monsters, forest monsters -- that will be completely disjoint with the normal sets"

It's like "Forest Imp", "Desert Imp", "City Imp" or "Forest Spirit", "Desert Rat", "City Bandit"?

Basicaly yes, but not such a primitive distinction like "*** Imp". They will be both different in names like in skills, but will follow a similar pattern -- weak, weak ranged, medium, strong, fastmoving, special medium, special strong. And maybe more.

"You could also include different kinds of melee weapons"
Yessh... Actually, I was going to experiment with this one after "Progressive" game mode was implemented for Berserk... so after final 0.8 is released and sources are included, it won't be a long time until the first "experimental", "non-berserkish" branch appears, which, of course, might supply vanilla BRL with features, if it by chance manages to actually include valuable ones.

Yet can you imagine Gutts favoring another weapon instead of the Dragonslayer? In vanilla berserk it will stay as it is.

Are the skill\trait suggestions needed at the moment, or you have enough of them with time being an issue?

I'm almost out of those, so bring'em on :P.

"And i can't imagine, how skeletons can differ from each other, if they appeares on different landscapes"
Bowmen for Forest, Swordsmen for City, Macemen for snow... Range vs Speed vs Power.

The whole point is that they wont be skeletons there. Wait and be amazed ;].

[Adral]

Ok, you were totally asking for this! Now you'll have to read yet another gigantic post of Adral! MWA HA HA HA HA

Note that some ideas might be repeated here, as I find them interesting :)

Ideas for Endless/ Massacre:

New terrain types, with more tactical choices:
- Castles, with rooms and such (sorta like DoomRL)
- Swamps (already suggested)
- Fields terrain generator with hills and rivers
- Forest with river/lake (randomly appears)
- Caves, with pseudo-natural creation

- Make some terrain indestructible
- Already noted: having some terrain influence your movement speed is a good idea - more tactical decisions

New monsters:
- TFoN and I really provided some ideas on other thread. I'll try to post more if I have some :)
- Monsters that are cannon fodder are nice -> don't make all monsters almost impossible to kill, that would just be annoying.
- Thematical monsters sound really nice! But don't make all monsters thematical - skeletons should be skeletons everywhere, for instance.

New skills/traits:
- New skills greatly improve the replayability of the game. I'll start a thread with my ideas there to not clutter this one, if you are interested on reading them.
- Balance issues - Sweep [3] is not that great, for instance.

New weapons:
- Already suggested before. Many people just find that a tactical roguelike action is about "choosing the best ranged attack" (magic/missile/etc). Prove them wrong: add new melee weapons (switchable) with different properties, so you actually have to think about what to use on the next turns for melee.
--For instance :  Axe, deals more damage than sword but is less accurate
                       Great Mace, greatly improves knockback and also improves damage a bit, but is slower
                       Spear, less damage but more accurate than sword

So every time you have to think whether to switch weapons (which cost you time) or stay with the one you have. Also, it might make for some special resistances or vulnerabilities on monsters - skeletons are immediately destroyed with axe or mace but untouched with spear, etc. You could start fully equipped or they would be unlockable each game, and you'll only start with the sword.
In this example, sword would be the "basic" weapon.

Character:
- Improvement feels a bit slow for endless game. Give the player 2 points every day. Note that this needs serious testing - if the game becomes very long it would fall on the boring side again.
- Already noted: killing some monsters takes forever :P

Also, as a side note, if Campaign isn't going to be winnable then... it might feel like a waste of time playing. People like to spend time in something they can win. But since I don't really know your exact plans on this, I'll trust in your intuition :)

[Igor Savin]

":D"

Is that "yes", oh my great Master?

"I will cut down the cost of Strength/Dexterity/Endurance by half in the next version. I hope that it will not render Willpower useless tough :/."

Make it free :-P.

"Yet can you imagine Gutts favoring another weapon instead of the Dragonslayer?"

"The setting is apparently related to some Berserk manga (of which I never heard before), but it doesn't influence the game in any way"

:-P.

"I'm almost out of those, so bring'em on :P."

O-kay...

The most obvious one, taken directly from DoomRL: Hard as Nails (would require significant prerequisite in order not to render IronMan useless - maybe IronMan lv 3).

Also:

1) Energy Vampire - gain few energy points\lv every time you kill a monster.
2) Long Range Combat Specialist: lv1 - Longer Throws, lv2 Faster Reload, lv3 Increased Accuracy, lv4 Increased damage. Of course, this might be separated into different skills for different weapon.
3) Adrenaline Rush - you gain Energy as you lose HP.
4) Lucky Dodger - 20%/level roll to dodge incoming missile (for those of us who hate imps).
5) Unstoppable - Decreased knockback, may swap places with monster (takes time, used as any attack does, may be resisted by more dangerous monsters).
6) Parry Specialist - increased defense when not attacking.
7) Bless of Death - 2%/level chance for every new monster not to spawn.
8) Lighting Strike - 10% a level to hit twice when attacking.
9) Fire Resistant - take only 1/3 of bomb damage.
10) Fairy Bless - Fairy Dust recovers more than MaxHP, decreases over time (DoomRL style), further levels increase "overburn", decreases bonus exhaustion rate.
11) Passionate - extends Berserk duration.
12) Panic Runner - may run using HP after Energy ends (3/2/1 point/lv/tile).
13) Avenger - monsters take damage from hitting you.

[Blade]

"And i can't imagine, how skeletons can differ from each other, if they appeares on different landscapes"
Bowmen for Forest, Swordsmen for City, Macemen for snow... Range vs Speed vs Power.

I can't even imagine, how skeletons that are raised moment ago in deep forest, for example, from corpse of beast, for example, can have ANY weapon other than stick ot rocks. Maybe skeleton stickman, and skeleton rockman?))) I'm not serious, anyway.

I will cut down the cost of Strength/Dexterity/Endurance by half in the next version. I hope that it will not render Willpower useless tough :/.

Anybody is listening to me? Why you don't like to give 2 points per level? Then you will have choise - to raise Strength*1, Endurance*1, or Willpower*2.

I'm almost out of those, so bring'em on :P.

I don't have so much ideas as Igor, so my little addition:

Bash - have normal damage to single enemy, but greater than norman chance to knock him back(maybe on bigger distance than normal). Requires: Str = 16 ; (maybe something more)
Zeal(directly from Diablo 2, so better name required) - you can make 2 attacks to single enemy, but with less hit chance. Requires: Dex = 12 ; Sweep = 1
Sharpshooter - increases accuracy of crossbow, knives, and bombs. Requires: Dex = 14
[/quote]

[Igor Savin]

"I can't even imagine, how skeletons that are raised moment ago in deep forest, for example, from corpse of beast, for example, can have ANY weapon other than stick ot rocks. Maybe skeleton stickman, and skeleton rockman?))) I'm not serious, anyway"

ROFL.
Hey, that'd make a great BRL mock-up!

"Why you don't like to give 2 points per level?"

I agree.

"Bash - have normal damage to single enemy, but greater than norman chance to knock him back(maybe on bigger distance than normal)."

And harm monster that stands there! And if you hit him into wall\tree, that hurts.

[Adral]

Well, I'll throw my trait ideas too:

- Will of Iron - willpower req. Lets you get out of berserk rage for an energy cost, and lets you increase your berserk state when out of the rage, also for an energy cost. [EDIT]: Even better, instead of letting you slip out of berserk rage, it lets you reload your weapons when berserkering. [/EDIT]
- Bloodlust - willpower req. Lets you enter berserk state sooner (i.e. 55% of health remaining instead of 50% at level 1)
- Dodge stance - dex req. When you enter dodge stance you have a greater dodge chance but every time you are hit or you would have been hit (so, in fact, every time you get attacked), some amount of energy is consumed.
- Pain immunity - endurance and/or willpower req. For a energy cost, you are able to recover some pain penalty instantly.
- Aggressive stance - strength req. When you enter aggressive stance, you deal more damage and have more accuracy, but each hit you give consumes energy

[Igor Savin]

"and lets you increase your berserk state when out of the rage, also for an energy cost."

Too powerful.

"instead of letting you slip out of berserk rage, it lets you reload your weapons when berserkering"

This one seems good.

"- Dodge stance - dex req. When you enter dodge stance you have a greater dodge chance but every time you are hit or you would have been hit (so, in fact, every time you get attacked), some amount of energy is consumed."

Some nerfing needed, I think.

"- Pain immunity - endurance and/or willpower req. For a energy cost, you are able to recover some pain penalty instantly."

Hmm... I wonder if we need some kind of "Exhaustion" meter in a style of "Pain" - it accumulates points, slowly dissipates, and decreases stamina regeneration (and maybe speed\accuracy\etc) - increases when Extreme skills are used.

[Adral]

"and lets you increase your berserk state when out of the rage, also for an energy cost."

Too powerful.

Yeah you are right. I just thought of it and quickly wrote it :P

"- Dodge stance - dex req. When you enter dodge stance you have a greater dodge chance but every time you are hit or you would have been hit (so, in fact, every time you get attacked), some amount of energy is consumed."

Some nerfing needed, I think.

Yep, but if the energy cost is high enough, it might work. Also note that consumes energy whether you are hit or not.

"- Pain immunity - endurance and/or willpower req. For a energy cost, you are able to recover some pain penalty instantly."

Hmm... I wonder if we need some kind of "Exhaustion" meter in a style of "Pain" - it accumulates points, slowly dissipates, and decreases stamina regeneration (and maybe speed\accuracy\etc) - increases when Extreme skills are used.

I wasn't thinking of this as an uber-skill. Just that it lets you ignore from 1 to 3 (for instance) pain points penalty for an energy cost.

The Exhaustion gauge might work - higher tier skills might just get some exhaustion. But I'll do it in the style that when you get exhausted, your maximum energy becomes lower, until you slowly regain exhaustion again. What do you think?

[Igor Savin]

"Yep, but if the energy cost is high enough, it might work"

Hmmm... Kornel?

"I wasn't thinking of this as an uber-skill. Just that it lets you ignore from 1 to 3 (for instance) pain points penalty for an energy cost"

Generally, Energy is used for running; if you are surrounded, you aren't going to run anyway; so it temporarily makes you immune to pain in dire straits.

On the other hand, it offers a rather curious alternative to running away...

"But I'll do it in the style that when you get exhausted, your maximum energy becomes lower, until you slowly regain exhaustion again"

That sounds reasonable. Do you think that no penalty to regeneration should be applied at all?