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Author Topic: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas  (Read 28321 times)

Kornel Kisielewicz

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Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« on: January 15, 2007, 16:33 »

Today Berserk! got bashed on rec.games.roguelike.misc by a couple of people for being repetetive, boring, and unimaginative, and a bad game at all. I'll quote the original post:

Quote
Ok, I was silent on the issue up to this point, but now I've got to say something unless Kornel would think that he is a god of RL scene or something. To simply put it, Berserk sucks. I think it is one of the worst RLs of 2006, especially considering it was made by the author of DoomRL and DiabloRL (which are excellent). With all the hype I simply cannot understand why people like it.

There is one dungeon (or rather, open field), hordes of typical monsters (I think there's 5 types of monsters in total) - the difference between them being purely cosmetic: one hits harder, one is slower, one shoots. That's basically it. Now that wouldn't be a problem if the game was short. No, it is too painfully long as the main character has a whopping 100HP and can restore his full HP several times. That means it takes hours to get killed unless you die from boredom before that - because there isn't much to do. The ranged weapons suck: a blast of a rocket launcher just scratches more strong monsters, other weapons are even worse. So it's basically all melee. Now, there is a feature that you can go berserk when you have low HP. Which looks and behaves exactly the same as in Crawl or DoomRL. The setting is apparently related to some Berserk manga (of which I never heard before), but it doesn't influence the game in any way. It could've easily been set in Transformers or Star Wars or whatever universe: just rename monsters and weapons and you're done. That's all: no redeeming features found. And that's a pity, because I expected something at least as good as DiabloRL, which was also made in 7 days. Instead we get an improved version of that 1drl with zombies and it's even less fun.

Quote
I think it was a case of 'I love DoomRL so anything that Kornel does must be great'.

I played Berserk once then got half way through a second game and quit because of boredom.  The gameplay, while simple, was good for a 7drl but because there was no overall goal for the me to aim at I lost interest very quickly.

(if you want to argure about the above points, please do that on rgrm!)

As much as I'd like to completely disagree, I still need to note that many of the reasons presented by the author of that post are valid. As it is, Berserk! in the endless modes (Endless/Massacre) is pretty much boring. The problem with those modes is that they are endless. And they will stay that way, for this is one of the major design decisions (Campaign mode however WILL have something of a "ending" -- definitively not a "win" tough ^_^).

There are two problems with an endless game:
  • You need to end it sooner than the player gets bored (my own impression was that the game had made a good length here, but maybe it should be shorter -- that is you should die earlier on average)
  • You need to provide variety during the gameplay.

The first one is a question to you guys, the second one is a request for ideas.

How to make the endless gameplay more interesting?

Let me state tough, that the form will stay the same -- Massacre is a one field battle to the death, Endless is a day after day battle with no plot whatsoever.

Any ideas? Write them here, even if they are just hunches -- we may come up with something together!
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2007, 17:26 »

I already said that i like Endless game, and it don't seems boring to me. Also Endless mode isn't so pointless, because you have some advancement after every night, and every next night becomes harder, and you face new monsters that are not similar to others. Remember Crimson Land - it's the same gameplay as Massacre, but with experience and levels. There are NO landscape at all in it. Gameplay there don't have any point too. They have 5 or 6 types(but many subtypes) of not so different monsters, even less than you have now. But CL is a successfull commercial project. And it's not boring to play one game there for half of an hour. It holds by quantity of weapons, it holds by quantity of monsters, it holds by it's Campaign,  and by it's perk system. So, as i understand, interest of gameplay in such endless games can be obtained by quantity of everything. Quantity of monster types, quantity of skills(maybe you can add here some traits in future), quantity of landscapes. All of this comes in time. I don't think that game after that need to be shorter than it is now. On the contrary if you have new monsters that appears on every next 2[3;4] levels, it must be longer than it is. Now the length is exactly enough to see Wraiths and phasehounds, and not to be bored.

What about second - i already told you about second.)) You need new monsters(you already have tread for this and LOTS of ideas), new skills and traits(maybe i can try to help here), and new landscapes(it's your work)).
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2007, 07:05 »

Ok, a few ideas:
-- make terrain more important -- add water, lava, add beings that can only move in those, make moving on road faster than on grass, find a use for trees, make terrain specific monsters.
-- add themed monster sets -- like snow monsters, lava/ash monsters, forest monsters -- that will be completely disjoint with the normal sets

What do you guys think?
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2007, 07:22 »

-- make terrain more important -- add water, lava, add beings that can only move in those, make moving on road faster than on grass, find a use for trees, make terrain specific monsters.

This will add some strategic element, so it won't be just running around all map, with big crowd of monsters after you.

-- add themed monster sets -- like snow monsters, lava/ash monsters, forest monsters -- that will be completely disjoint with the normal sets

Themed types will do the trick with mobs, who appeares on every level - Beasts, Bulldemons, Mandagores, Imps. It will somehow vary enemies, and you won't feel sick from same b and B on every level. I don't think that we need 4 different types of Wraiths - they appeares appriximately 3 times per game, rarely more. The same with Defiler. And i can't imagine, how skeletons can differ from each other, if they appeares on different landscapes.
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Styro

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2007, 08:34 »

Being able to improve your character adds a lot to the game. However, I never feel like my character is really improving. No matter how many skills I take, it still seems to take forever to kill an M.

Perhaps giving the player more points to play with so he has more of a sense of improvement would help. Of course you would have to ramp up the difficulty of the newer monsters to even it out. But the earlier monsters should be easier to kill as the player gets more skilled and it just doesn't seem to make much difference right now.

For example, if the average game last 4-6 days that means I can only improve 2 or 3 stats once (2 points each) or Dex once (4 points). How much of a difference are those going to make? In my experience the answer is, "Not much." Having more of a sense of improvement would help that.

The other possibility would be to have more flexibility in the weapons. Allow the player to choose how many knives, etc they want each day (so if I really like Crossbow I can take all crossbow ammo instead of any cannon ammo). This could also allow for the possibility of weapon-specific skills. You could also include different kinds of melee weapons. Some of this may already be intended for the campaign mode, I don't know.
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Igor Savin

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2007, 10:17 »

"The setting is apparently related to some Berserk manga (of which I never heard before), but it doesn't influence the game in any way".

Pffft. May I kill them?

(rest of response will go to rgrm)

"Perhaps giving the player more points to play with so he has more of a sense of improvement would help."

I do agree. Waiting for 4 days to improve Strength... Maybe I'm a wimp, but that's cruel.


"-- add themed monster sets -- like snow monsters, lava/ash monsters, forest monsters -- that will be completely disjoint with the normal sets"

It's like "Forest Imp", "Desert Imp", "City Imp" or "Forest Spirit", "Desert Rat", "City Bandit"?

"make terrain specific monsters"

Yep, that'd be fun.


"Being able to improve your character adds a lot to the game."

Oh yes...

"You could also include different kinds of melee weapons"

Yessh... Actually, I was going to experiment with this one after "Progressive" game mode was implemented for Berserk... so after final 0.8 is released and sources are included, it won't be a long time until the first "experimental", "non-berserkish" branch appears, which, of course, might supply vanilla BRL with features, if it by chance manages to actually include valuable ones.

Are the skill\trait suggestions needed at the moment, or you have enough of them with time being an issue?


"And i can't imagine, how skeletons can differ from each other, if they appeares on different landscapes"

Bowmen for Forest, Swordsmen for City, Macemen for snow... Range vs Speed vs Power.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2007, 10:27 »

"The setting is apparently related to some Berserk manga (of which I never heard before), but it doesn't influence the game in any way".

Pffft. May I kill them?

(rest of response will go to rgrm)
:D

"Perhaps giving the player more points to play with so he has more of a sense of improvement would help."
I do agree. Waiting for 4 days to improve Strength... Maybe I'm a wimp, but that's cruel.
I will cut down the cost of Strength/Dexterity/Endurance by half in the next version. I hope that it will not render Willpower useless tough :/.

"-- add themed monster sets -- like snow monsters, lava/ash monsters, forest monsters -- that will be completely disjoint with the normal sets"

It's like "Forest Imp", "Desert Imp", "City Imp" or "Forest Spirit", "Desert Rat", "City Bandit"?
Basicaly yes, but not such a primitive distinction like "*** Imp". They will be both different in names like in skills, but will follow a similar pattern -- weak, weak ranged, medium, strong, fastmoving, special medium, special strong. And maybe more.

"You could also include different kinds of melee weapons"
Yessh... Actually, I was going to experiment with this one after "Progressive" game mode was implemented for Berserk... so after final 0.8 is released and sources are included, it won't be a long time until the first "experimental", "non-berserkish" branch appears, which, of course, might supply vanilla BRL with features, if it by chance manages to actually include valuable ones.
Yet can you imagine Gutts favoring another weapon instead of the Dragonslayer? In vanilla berserk it will stay as it is.

Are the skill\trait suggestions needed at the moment, or you have enough of them with time being an issue?
I'm almost out of those, so bring'em on :P.

"And i can't imagine, how skeletons can differ from each other, if they appeares on different landscapes"
Bowmen for Forest, Swordsmen for City, Macemen for snow... Range vs Speed vs Power.
The whole point is that they wont be skeletons there. Wait and be amazed ;].
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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2007, 10:52 »

Ok, you were totally asking for this! Now you'll have to read yet another gigantic post of Adral! MWA HA HA HA HA

Note that some ideas might be repeated here, as I find them interesting :)

Ideas for Endless/ Massacre:

New terrain types, with more tactical choices:
- Castles, with rooms and such (sorta like DoomRL)
- Swamps (already suggested)
- Fields terrain generator with hills and rivers
- Forest with river/lake (randomly appears)
- Caves, with pseudo-natural creation

- Make some terrain indestructible
- Already noted: having some terrain influence your movement speed is a good idea - more tactical decisions

New monsters:
- TFoN and I really provided some ideas on other thread. I'll try to post more if I have some :)
- Monsters that are cannon fodder are nice -> don't make all monsters almost impossible to kill, that would just be annoying.
- Thematical monsters sound really nice! But don't make all monsters thematical - skeletons should be skeletons everywhere, for instance.

New skills/traits:
- New skills greatly improve the replayability of the game. I'll start a thread with my ideas there to not clutter this one, if you are interested on reading them.
- Balance issues - Sweep [3] is not that great, for instance.

New weapons:
- Already suggested before. Many people just find that a tactical roguelike action is about "choosing the best ranged attack" (magic/missile/etc). Prove them wrong: add new melee weapons (switchable) with different properties, so you actually have to think about what to use on the next turns for melee.
--For instance :  Axe, deals more damage than sword but is less accurate
                       Great Mace, greatly improves knockback and also improves damage a bit, but is slower
                       Spear, less damage but more accurate than sword

So every time you have to think whether to switch weapons (which cost you time) or stay with the one you have. Also, it might make for some special resistances or vulnerabilities on monsters - skeletons are immediately destroyed with axe or mace but untouched with spear, etc. You could start fully equipped or they would be unlockable each game, and you'll only start with the sword.
In this example, sword would be the "basic" weapon.

Character:
- Improvement feels a bit slow for endless game. Give the player 2 points every day. Note that this needs serious testing - if the game becomes very long it would fall on the boring side again.
- Already noted: killing some monsters takes forever :P

Also, as a side note, if Campaign isn't going to be winnable then... it might feel like a waste of time playing. People like to spend time in something they can win. But since I don't really know your exact plans on this, I'll trust in your intuition :)
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Igor Savin

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2007, 10:52 »

Quote
":D"

Is that "yes", oh my great Master?

Quote
"I will cut down the cost of Strength/Dexterity/Endurance by half in the next version. I hope that it will not render Willpower useless tough :/."

Make it free :-P.

Quote
"Yet can you imagine Gutts favoring another weapon instead of the Dragonslayer?"

Quote
"The setting is apparently related to some Berserk manga (of which I never heard before), but it doesn't influence the game in any way"

:-P.


Quote
"I'm almost out of those, so bring'em on :P."

O-kay...

The most obvious one, taken directly from DoomRL: Hard as Nails (would require significant prerequisite in order not to render IronMan useless - maybe IronMan lv 3).

Also:

1) Energy Vampire - gain few energy points\lv every time you kill a monster.
2) Long Range Combat Specialist: lv1 - Longer Throws, lv2 Faster Reload, lv3 Increased Accuracy, lv4 Increased damage. Of course, this might be separated into different skills for different weapon.
3) Adrenaline Rush - you gain Energy as you lose HP.
4) Lucky Dodger - 20%/level roll to dodge incoming missile (for those of us who hate imps).
5) Unstoppable - Decreased knockback, may swap places with monster (takes time, used as any attack does, may be resisted by more dangerous monsters).
6) Parry Specialist - increased defense when not attacking.
7) Bless of Death - 2%/level chance for every new monster not to spawn.
8) Lighting Strike - 10% a level to hit twice when attacking.
9) Fire Resistant - take only 1/3 of bomb damage.
10) Fairy Bless - Fairy Dust recovers more than MaxHP, decreases over time (DoomRL style), further levels increase "overburn", decreases bonus exhaustion rate.
11) Passionate - extends Berserk duration.
12) Panic Runner - may run using HP after Energy ends (3/2/1 point/lv/tile).
13) Avenger - monsters take damage from hitting you.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 12:21 by Igor Savin »
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Blade

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2007, 11:08 »

"And i can't imagine, how skeletons can differ from each other, if they appeares on different landscapes"
Bowmen for Forest, Swordsmen for City, Macemen for snow... Range vs Speed vs Power.

I can't even imagine, how skeletons that are raised moment ago in deep forest, for example, from corpse of beast, for example, can have ANY weapon other than stick ot rocks. Maybe skeleton stickman, and skeleton rockman?))) I'm not serious, anyway.

I will cut down the cost of Strength/Dexterity/Endurance by half in the next version. I hope that it will not render Willpower useless tough :/.

Anybody is listening to me? Why you don't like to give 2 points per level? Then you will have choise - to raise Strength*1, Endurance*1, or Willpower*2.

I'm almost out of those, so bring'em on :P.

I don't have so much ideas as Igor, so my little addition:

Bash - have normal damage to single enemy, but greater than norman chance to knock him back(maybe on bigger distance than normal). Requires: Str = 16 ; (maybe something more)
Zeal(directly from Diablo 2, so better name required) - you can make 2 attacks to single enemy, but with less hit chance. Requires: Dex = 12 ; Sweep = 1
Sharpshooter - increases accuracy of crossbow, knives, and bombs. Requires: Dex = 14
[/quote]
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Igor Savin

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2007, 11:19 »

Quote
"I can't even imagine, how skeletons that are raised moment ago in deep forest, for example, from corpse of beast, for example, can have ANY weapon other than stick ot rocks. Maybe skeleton stickman, and skeleton rockman?))) I'm not serious, anyway"

ROFL.
Hey, that'd make a great BRL mock-up!

Quote
"Why you don't like to give 2 points per level?"

I agree.

Quote
"Bash - have normal damage to single enemy, but greater than norman chance to knock him back(maybe on bigger distance than normal)."

And harm monster that stands there! And if you hit him into wall\tree, that hurts.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 12:20 by Igor Savin »
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Adral

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2007, 11:27 »

Well, I'll throw my trait ideas too:

- Will of Iron - willpower req. Lets you get out of berserk rage for an energy cost, and lets you increase your berserk state when out of the rage, also for an energy cost. [EDIT]: Even better, instead of letting you slip out of berserk rage, it lets you reload your weapons when berserkering. [/EDIT]
- Bloodlust - willpower req. Lets you enter berserk state sooner (i.e. 55% of health remaining instead of 50% at level 1)
- Dodge stance - dex req. When you enter dodge stance you have a greater dodge chance but every time you are hit or you would have been hit (so, in fact, every time you get attacked), some amount of energy is consumed.
- Pain immunity - endurance and/or willpower req. For a energy cost, you are able to recover some pain penalty instantly.
- Aggressive stance - strength req. When you enter aggressive stance, you deal more damage and have more accuracy, but each hit you give consumes energy
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Igor Savin

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2007, 11:34 »

Quote
"and lets you increase your berserk state when out of the rage, also for an energy cost."

Too powerful.

Quote
"instead of letting you slip out of berserk rage, it lets you reload your weapons when berserkering"

This one seems good.

Quote
"- Dodge stance - dex req. When you enter dodge stance you have a greater dodge chance but every time you are hit or you would have been hit (so, in fact, every time you get attacked), some amount of energy is consumed."

Some nerfing needed, I think.

Quote
"- Pain immunity - endurance and/or willpower req. For a energy cost, you are able to recover some pain penalty instantly."

Hmm... I wonder if we need some kind of "Exhaustion" meter in a style of "Pain" - it accumulates points, slowly dissipates, and decreases stamina regeneration (and maybe speed\accuracy\etc) - increases when Extreme skills are used.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 12:20 by Igor Savin »
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Adral

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2007, 11:45 »

"and lets you increase your berserk state when out of the rage, also for an energy cost."

Too powerful.
Yeah you are right. I just thought of it and quickly wrote it :P

"- Dodge stance - dex req. When you enter dodge stance you have a greater dodge chance but every time you are hit or you would have been hit (so, in fact, every time you get attacked), some amount of energy is consumed."

Some nerfing needed, I think.
Yep, but if the energy cost is high enough, it might work. Also note that consumes energy whether you are hit or not.

"- Pain immunity - endurance and/or willpower req. For a energy cost, you are able to recover some pain penalty instantly."

Hmm... I wonder if we need some kind of "Exhaustion" meter in a style of "Pain" - it accumulates points, slowly dissipates, and decreases stamina regeneration (and maybe speed\accuracy\etc) - increases when Extreme skills are used.

I wasn't thinking of this as an uber-skill. Just that it lets you ignore from 1 to 3 (for instance) pain points penalty for an energy cost.

The Exhaustion gauge might work - higher tier skills might just get some exhaustion. But I'll do it in the style that when you get exhausted, your maximum energy becomes lower, until you slowly regain exhaustion again. What do you think?
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Igor Savin

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2007, 12:00 »

Quote
"Yep, but if the energy cost is high enough, it might work"

Hmmm... Kornel?

Quote
"I wasn't thinking of this as an uber-skill. Just that it lets you ignore from 1 to 3 (for instance) pain points penalty for an energy cost"

Generally, Energy is used for running; if you are surrounded, you aren't going to run anyway; so it temporarily makes you immune to pain in dire straits.

On the other hand, it offers a rather curious alternative to running away...


Quote
"But I'll do it in the style that when you get exhausted, your maximum energy becomes lower, until you slowly regain exhaustion again"

That sounds reasonable. Do you think that no penalty to regeneration should be applied at all?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 12:20 by Igor Savin »
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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2007, 12:09 »

"I wasn't thinking of this as an uber-skill. Just that it lets you ignore from 1 to 3 (for instance) pain points penalty for an energy cost"

Generally, Energy is used for running; if you are surrounded, you aren't going to run anyway; so it temporarily makes you immune to pain in dire straits.

On the other hand, it offers a rather curious alternative to running away...

If you do apply that skill, it takes some time. So running away is always a good idea - it just lets you enter into combat quicker. But, you are right, it might be interesting to see a build based on not running but spending energy on staying and hitting everyone hard enough - until you have no energy, and then you are pretty much doomed :P

Also, that attitude seems "berserkerish" (OMG NEW WORD) to me :P

"But I'll do it in the style that when you get exhausted, your maximum energy becomes lower, until you slowly regain exhaustion again"

That sounds reasonable. Do you think that no penalty to regeneration should be applied at all?

I think that it depends on what the skills that cause exhaustion do. If they are powerful enough, the downside would have to be more severe.

Also, having less total energy can really be a pain in some circumstances.
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Igor Savin

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2007, 12:13 »

Quote
"and then you are pretty much doomed"

I think we have another game for getting that :-P.

Quote
"that attitude seems "berserkerish" (OMG NEW WORD) to me"

Precisely; much more than the current "Damn, I'm getting out of here ASAP!!" attitude.

Quote
"having less total energy can really be a pain in some circumstances"

Yes...
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 12:19 by Igor Savin »
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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2007, 12:18 »

":D"

Is that "yes", oh my great Master?
We were going to send a Vindicre Assasin, but if you insist :)

I must say you two have lots of fun ideas - I hope that at least some of them will get implemented.

Oh and Igor - use quote tags please - it'll be easier to read :P
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2007, 12:20 »

@New weapons -- sorry, but my vision of Berserk! doesn't tolerate anything else except the Dragonslayer.
@New terrain types -- Yes, those will be in -- along with a more important role of terrain in thge tactics.
@Improvement -- I favor one point with cut price over two points. Two points just presents needles complication imho.

Now to traits -- here are come general comments. With the ONLY exception of Ironman (which is only there for reasons of fallback in case no other skills are available for choice) I'd like to keep it the way that ALL skills have a direct visual representation in the game, and are not just modifying some invisible statistics (like most of the traits in DoomRL). Why? It's more fun that way.

About Berserk/Energy-affecting skills -- a no-no. Berserk and Energy are too important parts of the game, so any skill affecting them would be by definition overpowered. Also any control over Berserking will be bad, because it will take away the feeling of chas and carnage -- the untamed wild bloodshed that happens in Berserk mode ;]. Berserk is not to be controlled or it will loose it's uniqueness (contrary to what the guy in that post said, Berserk!'s Berserk mode is VERY unique -- I'll post an explanation on my blog when 0.8 comes out).

Also replenishing of Energy should be unaffected by skills -- energy is a timer which balances special attacks. Any modifing of the recharge rate will be VERY hard to balance. And will add to needless complication.

Pain is also something unique to Berserk, and I don't want to provide any way to get rid of it -- it keeps the player moving.

Defense IS increased when not attcking ;]. It is increased a little if moving, and more if not doing anything :P.

Multistrike traits -- for this we have the speed system! Double strikes are just two fast strikes.

Any single-strike attack -- I am against an all-purpose substitution for a normal attack no matter how much energy it takes. A normal attack is a normal attack. Any ideas that would give an advanced attack for energy are off the limit.

Exhaustion? That's what energy is for!
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Igor Savin

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2007, 12:27 »

Quote
We were going to send a Vindicre Assasin, but if you insist :)

Now to think about it... purging those heretics in the name of our Lord is a great honour indeed... I would show disrespect to my fellow comrades if just go and take it all for myself.

Quote
I must say you two have lots of fun ideas - I hope that at least some of them will get implemented.

Kornel sure seems to look at this in a different way (-:.

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Oh and Igor - use quote tags please

Fixed.


Quote
here are come general comments

Should I sum it up as "You all like *entirely* missed the point"?


Seems like a long, hard thinking is needed...
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 12:29 by Igor Savin »
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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2007, 12:38 »

Nah, it's not that those ideas are bad, I'm just trying to show you why I think my way of thinking is better. But you may proove me otherwise :). I stated not only the things I don't like, but also the design/gameplay reasons behind it -- so there's plenty room for discussion :)
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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2007, 12:41 »

@New weapons -- sorry, but my vision of Berserk! doesn't tolerate anything else except the Dragonslayer.
Well, that's bad - less tactical choices. But still it's your game, so do whatever you want :)
@New terrain types -- Yes, those will be in -- along with a more important role of terrain in thge tactics.
Cool.

@Improvement -- I favor one point with cut price over two points. Two points just presents needles complication imho.
I think it represents the same complication. Also, with cut price, willpower will have to be balanced so that it would cost 2 points now... so I think both ways are almost equal.

About Berserk/Energy-affecting skills -- a no-no. Berserk and Energy are too important parts of the game, so any skill affecting them would be by definition overpowered. Also any control over Berserking will be bad, because it will take away the feeling of chas and carnage -- the untamed wild bloodshed that happens in Berserk mode ;]. Berserk is not to be controlled or it will loose it's uniqueness (contrary to what the guy in that post said, Berserk!'s Berserk mode is VERY unique -- I'll post an explanation on my blog when 0.8 comes out).
The problem with this is that you are effectively negating players to invest lots of points in willpower - one game I became BORED of being berserk the whole time because I couldn't reload anything, so I decided to let the 4/5 mandragores remaining kill me - I was at 6 hp without Fairydusts left, and with lots of crossbow ammo.

Also replenishing of Energy should be unaffected by skills -- energy is a timer which balances special attacks. Any modifing of the recharge rate will be VERY hard to balance. And will add to needless complication.
I see your point. No energy replenishing rate touched, then :)

Pain is also something unique to Berserk, and I don't want to provide any way to get rid of it -- it keeps the player moving.
Huh? You want to be (kind of) true to Berserk!, you don't want more weapons other than Gatsu's standard sword, you want to give the player a "berserk" mode in which all they can do is kill kill and kill some more in melee, yet you want the player to start running away like a chicken to recover from his wounds? I can't see Gatsu ever running away from combat so often :P

Also, having a way in which to take a some pain out at the cost of energy, keeps pain in the game, because you must run away to recover or use this skill to stay and fight like a true berserker :P

**EDIT Note that the idea suggested doesn't take out ALL the pain. So you'd still ave to run in some circumstances /EDIT**

Multistrike traits -- for this we have the speed system! Double strikes are just two fast strikes.
Yeah, this is nice.

Regarding attacks, it would be really nice to see some kind of animation when you do a special move. It would make the game funnier, in my opinion :)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 12:43 by Adral »
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Igor Savin

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2007, 12:43 »

Nah, it's not that those ideas are bad, I'm just trying to show you why I think my way of thinking is better. But you may proove me otherwise :). I stated not only the things I don't like, but also the design/gameplay reasons behind it -- so there's plenty room for discussion :)

Your design\gameplay reasons leave very little or no room for discussion ("-Energy tweaking will ruin the balance -NO IT WON'T! -No, it will! -I tell you it won't!..")... The only argument I could use would be knife put next to your neck in a form of an alternative game, which would be blasphemious and superior at the same time.

I second what Adral said about running away.

When are the sources coming out?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 12:46 by Igor Savin »
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2007, 12:46 »

Hey, just tell why do you think Energy tweaking would help the game :]. As for the sources -- they'll be out with the official 0.8 release.
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Igor Savin

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2007, 12:49 »

Hey, just tell why do you think Energy tweaking would help the game :]. As for the sources -- they'll be out with the official 0.8 release.

As if I know why it will ^_^. For me it's all about adding new ways to modify "some invisible magical numbers" and thus extend the possibilities and options of character development (which is the greatest fun for me).

Okay, so when do you plan releasing that one?
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Igor Savin

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2007, 12:51 »

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Well, that's bad - less tactical choices. But still it's your game, so do whatever you want :)

We should keep track of "Nice things that Kornel will never\shouldn't bother trying to  do" and save them for the branch. Would you mind lending a hand in brainstorming what is there to be done after sources are released?
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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2007, 12:55 »

Just some more ideas to argue a bit more:P

Now to traits -- here are come general comments. With the ONLY exception of Ironman (which is only there for reasons of fallback in case no other skills are available for choice) I'd like to keep it the way that ALL skills have a direct visual representation in the game, and are not just modifying some invisible statistics (like most of the traits in DoomRL). Why? It's more fun that way.
Well, then just DO a graphical representation when using ALL the skills:P Do an animation or whatever, and then the game will be more open to new ideas :)

Defense IS increased when not attcking ;]. It is increased a little if moving, and more if not doing anything :P.
Really, what's the point of having more defense when standing still?

* Gatsu is surrounded by a pack of Mandragores and skeletons
Gatsu says "Heh, they think they can kill me, but I'll stand right there doing nothing and they shall die of boredom!"

I think defense should be increased when running more than when standing still...

Just my opinion, though :P
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Adral

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2007, 12:58 »

We should keep track of "Nice things that Kornel will never\shouldn't bother trying to  do" and save them for the branch. Would you mind lending a hand in brainstorming what is there to be done after sources are released?

Of course not! I feel honoured, I love sharing ideas! :)
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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2007, 13:24 »

I just played few more times, and my opinion still is that high-level monsters shouldn's be generated on first levels.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2007, 13:32 »

Duh! I didn't even make an official release, and already people are scheming to overthrow me? ^_^

Kiddin' of course -- there would be no greater honour for a roguelike developer, then if his game spawned a variant that would be successful. And it would be the first such case in the post-crawl roguelike world :)

@Bored on Berserk -- sorry I can't imagine being bored on Berserk :P. What I like about Berserk is the fact that it's a double edged sword, and that sometimes it's a nuiscance. I can't put into the game the main disadvantage of Berserk from the manga (friend or foe) so I try in other ways to make berserk a double edged weapon. There will be traits usable only OUTSIDE berserk in the future :). But I don't completely forgoe the chance of a Willpower based trait that would allow you to reload on berserk.

@Energy replenishing -- the only additional way to replenish energy that I think might be berserkish, would be a trait that for a formidable amount of HP would replenish your energy and maybe even remove the pain. Why HP cost? To show that Gutts is burning his body! But I'm not that sure of it yet... what do you think?

@Defence when standing still -- standing still is not doing nothing -- if Gutts stops attacking that means he focuses on defence, right? ^_^

BTW, I had a crazy, and probably unimplementable (yet?) idea -- character choice! :P

Berserker (Gatsu)
Fencer (Serpico, pre-eclipse Griffiths, pre-Gatsu Farnese )
Witch (Schierke, Flora, post-Gutts Farnese)

I only added "classes" that would give realy different play experiences. There could be a few more unlockable after game completion:

Forsaken (Skull Knight)
Beast (Zodd)
Apostole (kheh ;])

In the last two cases, the objective of the campaign mode would be slightly different ^^.

Note that that WOULD allow for weapon choice, and a lot of other character choices... but I'm afraid that's a little out of scope... or maybe?

@Blade - I nerfed the generation. Summoners will appear at earliest the 3rd night.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 13:36 by Kornel Kisielewicz »
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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2007, 13:51 »

Duh! I didn't even make an official release, and already people are scheming to overthrow me? ^_^

Kiddin' of course -- there would be no greater honour for a roguelike developer, then if his game spawned a variant that would be successful. And it would be the first such case in the post-crawl roguelike world :)
If your game gets a variant it means people are really interested in it!

@Bored on Berserk -- sorry I can't imagine being bored on Berserk :P. What I like about Berserk is the fact that it's a double edged sword, and that sometimes it's a nuiscance. I can't put into the game the main disadvantage of Berserk from the manga (friend or foe) so I try in other ways to make berserk a double edged weapon. There will be traits usable only OUTSIDE berserk in the future :). But I don't completely forgoe the chance of a Willpower based trait that would allow you to reload on berserk.
Ok, I concede :)

Thinking about it, in fact it's cool that it's a double-edged sword, so I see your point. And if there is room for a trait that lets you reload while berserkering (for an energy cost, of course) then we're on the same track :D

@Energy replenishing -- the only additional way to replenish energy that I think might be berserkish, would be a trait that for a formidable amount of HP would replenish your energy and maybe even remove the pain. Why HP cost? To show that Gutts is burning his body! But I'm not that sure of it yet... what do you think?
Hmm... could work - but don't let it replenish Pain. I think it's better to have a way of getting rid of pain instead of running (spending energy), as I said before. Feels more like you are one crazy man taking his last chances against hell! Maybe restrict it so you can only use it when berserk at lower levels, and finally be able to use it outside of berserk when at the highest trait level? Of course, using it outside berserk should cost you more energy - you need to concentrate more and you are not as crazy :P

@Defence when standing still -- standing still is not doing nothing -- if Gutts stops attacking that means he focuses on defence, right? ^_^
I see that point, but I see that, from a gaming perspective, it makes little sense...

BTW, I had a crazy, and probably unimplementable (yet?) idea -- character choice! :P

Berserker (Gatsu)
Fencer (Serpico, pre-eclipse Griffiths, pre-Gatsu Farnese )
Witch (Schierke, Flora, post-Gutts Farnese)

I only added "classes" that would give realy different play experiences. There could be a few more unlockable after game completion:

Forsaken (Skull Knight)
Beast (Zodd)
Apostole (kheh ;])

In the last two cases, the objective of the campaign mode would be slightly different ^^.

Note that that WOULD allow for weapon choice, and a lot of other character choices... but I'm afraid that's a little out of scope... or maybe?

Go. For. It. This idea is just genius!

I think it would be better to focus on it later, when Campaign is implemented, though...
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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2007, 01:45 »

This topic seems to have gotten pretty big since yesterday morning, so I'm posting this before reading the whole topic (for some reason, I can't concentrate on anything right now).

As Berserk is a game of tactical bloodshed, what it needs is to have more tactical options. I have some suggestions for that.

The new skill system is nice, and I have a suggestion on how to improve it.

Instead of having multiple levels in skills, you could have a base level for a skill, and then the player could improve a part of his choice of that skill. For example. After the initial level of sweep the player would have a choice to either improve its damage or decrease energy/time. With Impale the player could increase max range, damage or decrease energy/time cost. Of course Running or Ironman couldn't be changed.

A skill could also have some one time bonuses to buy, or that they would automatically get when you have some other skills, so you could buy Jump before Impale, but it would get the attack part only after you have Impale (maximum jump distance could also be affected by END and/or DEX).

This could work better if the skills had a point cost and you would get for example 2 points after each level. A new skill would cost 2 points and skill improvements would cost 1 point, so that taking sweep and 2 levels of damage and 2 levels of energy decrease would result in a sweep with dmg of a normal attack and energy cost of level 3 sweep (this is because I think that sweep should do normal dmg on lvl3 if it doesn't already).

Well, maybe not exactly like that because everyone would just take lvl 2 energy decrease first, but you get the idea, the player would have a choice to increase a part of the skill fast or advance all parts at the same speed.

Another suggestion is to have monsters that have unique moving patterns and behaviour so that a skilled player can handle a single monster without taking any damage, but when there are more than one, or some other monsters, the player cannot avoid taking damage anymore. This is basically how the Mandagores work now. When there is only a single one I can take it on easily, but when there's a horde of beasts, the last thing I want there is a Mandagore or two. It adds pressure and makes the player want to panic.

And another thing, which possibly should go to RC3 topic. Cannon needs to be powered up (though it might just be only me). I want to have a real weapon of mass destruction, so that it will really kill anything on its path. I can handle a decreased number of cannon balls if they really shred everything apart.

I will cut down the cost of Strength/Dexterity/Endurance by half in the next version. I hope that it will not render Willpower useless tough :/.
I don't know if anyone else has told you this yet, but DON'T DO IT! It will make the game easier and prolong playtime, making the game more boring. A MUCH better solution would be to just give the player 2 points after each night.
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Fingerzam

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2007, 03:35 »

Okay, now I read the whole topic and here are my comments on some points made. Some of it has already been said by other people, as I wrote it while reading.

New terrain types, with more tactical choices:
- Castles, with rooms and such (sorta like DoomRL)
- Swamps (already suggested)
- Fields terrain generator with hills and rivers
- Forest with river/lake (randomly appears)
- Caves, with pseudo-natural creation

- Make some terrain indestructible
- Already noted: having some terrain influence your movement speed is a good idea - more tactical decisions

Hills should also give you a to hit/dmg bonus for higher ground and negative bonus for being lower then your opponent. Water could make dodging harder for both you and your enemies.

Sharpshooter - increases accuracy of crossbow, knives, and bombs. Requires: Dex = 14

DEX 14 = sharpshooter already, making this useless. If you want something like this, do not require DEX, as it already provides this, but it would be useful for those who have lower DEX(though might make DEX less useful). This is like those ADoM's learning traits that are useless for those who have the requirements (might have been something else than learning, it has been a while since I played ADoM).

@Bored on Berserk -- sorry I can't imagine being bored on Berserk :P. What I like about Berserk is the fact that it's a double edged sword, and that sometimes it's a nuiscance. I can't put into the game the main disadvantage of Berserk from the manga (friend or foe) so I try in other ways to make berserk a double edged weapon. There will be traits usable only OUTSIDE berserk in the future :). But I don't completely forgoe the chance of a Willpower based trait that would allow you to reload on berserk.

Perhaps make reloading possible while berserking only when you have no fairydust left?

@Energy replenishing -- the only additional way to replenish energy that I think might be berserkish, would be a trait that for a formidable amount of HP would replenish your energy and maybe even remove the pain. Why HP cost? To show that Gutts is burning his body! But I'm not that sure of it yet... what do you think?

I don't like this idea much, I don't think anything other than berserking should affect energy (and of course one use items(=fairydust)), though the idea of using energy to resist pain does sound reasonable.

@Defence when standing still -- standing still is not doing nothing -- if Gutts stops attacking that means he focuses on defence, right? ^_^

Does running increase chances to avoid imps?

BTW, I had a crazy, and probably unimplementable (yet?) idea -- character choice! :P

Perhaps make it possible to have mods, and have these available in an example mod? Though I have nothing against it in the game itself either.

My thoughts on the skill suggestions:
What I blelieve is that Berserk doesn't need an infinite list of different skills (of course, this is just my opinion), but a relatively small list of different and tactically valuable attack/movement skills. But another thing I also understand is that this is brainstorming, and the whole point of it is that everything that comes to mind should be said, even if it doesn't make any sense at first, it can always help someone else get another idea.

I think I'm starting to sound like I'm trying to take the project over. Perhaps I should just learn to code and make a variant, since I already have an idea for one.

Also, this game seems like an excellent place to prototype different character advancement systems, as advancement is fast.
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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2007, 03:56 »

Hills should also give you a to hit/dmg bonus for higher ground and negative bonus for being lower then your opponent. Water could make dodging harder for both you and your enemies.
I like this terrain ideas!

Perhaps make reloading possible while berserking only when you have no fairydust left?
In my opinion, having to spend a trait and some energy every time you want to reload while berserk sounds balanced, but yours could be another idea for it.

My thoughts on the skill suggestions:
What I blelieve is that Berserk doesn't need an infinite list of different skills (of course, this is just my opinion), but a relatively small list of different and tactically valuable attack/movement skills. But another thing I also understand is that this is brainstorming, and the whole point of it is that everything that comes to mind should be said, even if it doesn't make any sense at first, it can always help someone else get another idea.
Actually, you ideas on "improvable traits" sound very good. And they wouldn't help to not clutter the keyboard with thousand of letters in order to use all the skills.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2007, 04:45 »

@Partial skill increases -- this may sound as fun, but it has two problems associated with it -- the first one is the confusion it adds for beginning players -- there's nothing that turns off beginning players from a game then an excess of micromanagement, and seemingly unmeaningfull choices. The other, much harder, problem is the question of balance. And to be honest, I'm afraid to open this can of worms :/. Any ideas/suggestions?

@Movement patterns -- sure, I'll remember it when upgrading the AI. Bulldemons are annoying in RC4 ^_^

@Improving cannon -- hell, it's been improved thrice already :). Also, it can't be gone overboard with, or else people will save it for boss monsters. I see the cannon more of a mass sweeper, then a single hard hitting weapon, on not?

Running does help avoid imps, but now that you mentioned it, it should do that a lot more effectively -- I'll do that.

Reloading only if you got no fairydust left sounds logical, but stinks too much of metagameing??
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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2007, 06:13 »

@Partial skill increases -- this may sound as fun, but it has two problems associated with it -- the first one is the confusion it adds for beginning players -- there's nothing that turns off beginning players from a game then an excess of micromanagement, and seemingly unmeaningfull choices. The other, much harder, problem is the question of balance. And to be honest, I'm afraid to open this can of worms :/. Any ideas/suggestions?

Good points, didn't think about the first one when I posted my idea. I think both can be aknowleged, at least partly, by keeping the number of partial levels low, and the number of improvements low. So that mostly a skill would only have 2 paths with both having 1-3 levels, and only having them at all when they would offer good choises (I like the idea of having the possibility to increase jump max distance)

But I have to admit that balancing it can be pretty difficult.

@Improving cannon -- hell, it's been improved thrice already :). Also, it can't be gone overboard with, or else people will save it for boss monsters. I see the cannon more of a mass sweeper, then a single hard hitting weapon, on not?

Well, I can agree here now that I think more about it.

Reloading only if you got no fairydust left sounds logical, but stinks too much of metagameing??
Well, it does. I just couldn't think of a better solution.
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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2007, 09:27 »

Alright, I haven't played the latest release (only watched the replay), but I want to get my thoughts down before I crumble into a heap on the floor of my room... perhaps some of these ideas are already in the game... if so, please ignore!

1. Movement - One of the fun things about RL's is the exploration, and since this game really has none, giving the player more movement options is a must, imo.  Guts is really a tank, but even he moves around quite a bit in the manga.  It'd be nice to be able to perform jumps... perhaps if you have a tree or wall on one side of you you can use it to propel yourself over your enemies?  Especially if you put in Griffin and some of the more agile characters.  That I think would add a tactical edge to the game that most roguelikes don't have.

2. Goals - New levels, skills, stats, etc., are all good ways to make the player feel like they are accomplishing something.  But there isn't a "final prize" in BerserkRL other than survival.  And in a way, that's very true to the manga (and it's called Endless Mode, after all).  But as a game, it's always nice to feel like you're working toward a bigger goal.  One way to solve the conflict is to perhaps have special areas that have tougher monsters, or even "boss monsters."  Maybe every few levels you arrive at a "destination" and fight a super tough version of one of the regular monsters with a name, and when you beat them, you are told you have "liberated" the area and saved some lives.  That would give the player a feeling of accomplishment and make them want to continue on to the next boss.

3. Friends? - In the manga people are always tagging along with Guts and getting themselves killed, but many times saving his life in the process.  Maybe having some NPC's to help you fight (and ultimately get killed) could be fun and drive some excitement.  They should be extremely volatile... easily killed by monsters or by you (accidentally?).  Generally they would be cannon fodder, but perhaps an experienced player could use them to his/her advantage...

Alright, time to die for another night (day?)...
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Malek Deneith

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2007, 12:05 »

One minor thing to consider - is Dextrity really so much better than other stats that it should cost 2x times more? Personally from my experience when faced between putting one poit in Dex or two in Strenght, or four in Will, I'd get more by pumping strenght or will. So what are others opinions on the subject?
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Blade

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2007, 12:29 »

One minor thing to consider - is Dextrity really so much better than other stats that it should cost 2x times more? Personally from my experience when faced between putting one poit in Dex or two in Strenght, or four in Will, I'd get more by pumping strenght or will. So what are others opinions on the subject?

We will see in next Candidate, when we will be able to improve stats more than Dex*2, or Str*4 till the end of game. For me Dextirity seem very powerfull, even with so big point consumption.
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Fingerzam

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2007, 14:36 »

I agree with blade here. With no points in DEX you really won't be surviving long enough, because you will be constantly getting hit. A few points (3 for me) in DEX makes all the difference, and a character with 14 DEX will survive much longer than a character with all points invested in other stats.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2007, 01:44 »

@Derek
1. Jumping is already in :). I think already Berserk! has the most movement options of all roguelikes. But more "moves" are yet to come! Any ideas BTW are welcome.

2. Yes I agree, and I thought about that too. But somehow I'm not into ideas for that yet... :/ Anyone would like to elaborate on that? I have the idea for bosses, but not for the "events".

3. When I first looked at that point I thought that you wanted to go against what I hold most dear in the game -- the feeling of isolation, but the subsentence "and ultimately get killed" showed me that all is well in the state of Denmark ^_^. Unfortunately the engine is completely unprepared for "fighting" companions -- because of many reasons like the fact that all special abilities of monsters target the player automaticaly etc., but I also had the idea of helpless people in town levels that get completely massacred during the fight no matter how hard you try to save them... Berserkish IMHO. Tough if any of them by any miracle would survive you'd get a bonus (or a stab in the back :P).

@All
If all goes well, RC4 might appear today, so keep your eyes open :).
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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2007, 13:05 »

Character choice as it is usualy done seems very much out of place here, IMO, as the game starts by bluntly pointing out the fact that you are a Berserk!er. But how about making a choice of weapon much like other games would have a choice of class or race?
I thought about this one a while back, and since the character theme here is one of a very straight-forward, single-minded fighter that just screems "screw pickups, I'll bash rocks with my trusty wooden club", why not have char progression depend on a one-time choice of a weapon?
A great-sword's the default, balanced weapon. A great-axe gives massive preference to the Seep Attack skill, while it will be very weak on impaling. A spear(ish) weapon is the opposite, and is great for a jump attack.
If a bashing skill'll be implemented, a maul'd be great for that.
There could also be differences in the ways dexterity and strength effect play with different weapons.

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Re: Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2007, 13:54 »

Now that I've played the new version a while:

Foresters seem so out of place! I can only see an odd little ranger waking pleasent (light green?!) guardians of the forest! I really suggest changing the colors (T & F?), and making the names more fitting's IMO also a good idea.

Other than that, all's well:
Scavengers are irritating to fight on blood-drenched ground.
Bulldemons went from bad to worse.
Mandagores kill monsters for me, and since they're so slow, dealing with them without taking damage's often much easier than dealing with what they ate, even if it's just a beast.
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