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[Adral]

"I wasn't thinking of this as an uber-skill. Just that it lets you ignore from 1 to 3 (for instance) pain points penalty for an energy cost"

Generally, Energy is used for running; if you are surrounded, you aren't going to run anyway; so it temporarily makes you immune to pain in dire straits.

On the other hand, it offers a rather curious alternative to running away...

If you do apply that skill, it takes some time. So running away is always a good idea - it just lets you enter into combat quicker. But, you are right, it might be interesting to see a build based on not running but spending energy on staying and hitting everyone hard enough - until you have no energy, and then you are pretty much doomed :P

Also, that attitude seems "berserkerish" (OMG NEW WORD) to me :P

"But I'll do it in the style that when you get exhausted, your maximum energy becomes lower, until you slowly regain exhaustion again"

That sounds reasonable. Do you think that no penalty to regeneration should be applied at all?

I think that it depends on what the skills that cause exhaustion do. If they are powerful enough, the downside would have to be more severe.

Also, having less total energy can really be a pain in some circumstances.

[Igor Savin]

"and then you are pretty much doomed"

I think we have another game for getting that :-P.

"that attitude seems "berserkerish" (OMG NEW WORD) to me"

Precisely; much more than the current "Damn, I'm getting out of here ASAP!!" attitude.

"having less total energy can really be a pain in some circumstances"

Yes...

[Malek Deneith]

":D"

Is that "yes", oh my great Master?

We were going to send a Vindicre Assasin, but if you insist :)

I must say you two have lots of fun ideas - I hope that at least some of them will get implemented.

Oh and Igor - use quote tags please - it'll be easier to read :P

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

@New weapons -- sorry, but my vision of Berserk! doesn't tolerate anything else except the Dragonslayer.
@New terrain types -- Yes, those will be in -- along with a more important role of terrain in thge tactics.
@Improvement -- I favor one point with cut price over two points. Two points just presents needles complication imho.

Now to traits -- here are come general comments. With the ONLY exception of Ironman (which is only there for reasons of fallback in case no other skills are available for choice) I'd like to keep it the way that ALL skills have a direct visual representation in the game, and are not just modifying some invisible statistics (like most of the traits in DoomRL). Why? It's more fun that way.

About Berserk/Energy-affecting skills -- a no-no. Berserk and Energy are too important parts of the game, so any skill affecting them would be by definition overpowered. Also any control over Berserking will be bad, because it will take away the feeling of chas and carnage -- the untamed wild bloodshed that happens in Berserk mode ;]. Berserk is not to be controlled or it will loose it's uniqueness (contrary to what the guy in that post said, Berserk!'s Berserk mode is VERY unique -- I'll post an explanation on my blog when 0.8 comes out).

Also replenishing of Energy should be unaffected by skills -- energy is a timer which balances special attacks. Any modifing of the recharge rate will be VERY hard to balance. And will add to needless complication.

Pain is also something unique to Berserk, and I don't want to provide any way to get rid of it -- it keeps the player moving.

Defense IS increased when not attcking ;]. It is increased a little if moving, and more if not doing anything :P.

Multistrike traits -- for this we have the speed system! Double strikes are just two fast strikes.

Any single-strike attack -- I am against an all-purpose substitution for a normal attack no matter how much energy it takes. A normal attack is a normal attack. Any ideas that would give an advanced attack for energy are off the limit.

Exhaustion? That's what energy is for!

[Igor Savin]

We were going to send a Vindicre Assasin, but if you insist :)

Now to think about it... purging those heretics in the name of our Lord is a great honour indeed... I would show disrespect to my fellow comrades if just go and take it all for myself.

I must say you two have lots of fun ideas - I hope that at least some of them will get implemented.

Kornel sure seems to look at this in a different way (-:.

Oh and Igor - use quote tags please

Fixed.

here are come general comments

Should I sum it up as "You all like *entirely* missed the point"?


Seems like a long, hard thinking is needed...

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Nah, it's not that those ideas are bad, I'm just trying to show you why I think my way of thinking is better. But you may proove me otherwise :). I stated not only the things I don't like, but also the design/gameplay reasons behind it -- so there's plenty room for discussion :)

[Adral]

@New weapons -- sorry, but my vision of Berserk! doesn't tolerate anything else except the Dragonslayer.

Well, that's bad - less tactical choices. But still it's your game, so do whatever you want :)

@New terrain types -- Yes, those will be in -- along with a more important role of terrain in thge tactics.

Cool.

@Improvement -- I favor one point with cut price over two points. Two points just presents needles complication imho.

I think it represents the same complication. Also, with cut price, willpower will have to be balanced so that it would cost 2 points now... so I think both ways are almost equal.

About Berserk/Energy-affecting skills -- a no-no. Berserk and Energy are too important parts of the game, so any skill affecting them would be by definition overpowered. Also any control over Berserking will be bad, because it will take away the feeling of chas and carnage -- the untamed wild bloodshed that happens in Berserk mode ;]. Berserk is not to be controlled or it will loose it's uniqueness (contrary to what the guy in that post said, Berserk!'s Berserk mode is VERY unique -- I'll post an explanation on my blog when 0.8 comes out).

The problem with this is that you are effectively negating players to invest lots of points in willpower - one game I became BORED of being berserk the whole time because I couldn't reload anything, so I decided to let the 4/5 mandragores remaining kill me - I was at 6 hp without Fairydusts left, and with lots of crossbow ammo.

Also replenishing of Energy should be unaffected by skills -- energy is a timer which balances special attacks. Any modifing of the recharge rate will be VERY hard to balance. And will add to needless complication.

I see your point. No energy replenishing rate touched, then :)

Pain is also something unique to Berserk, and I don't want to provide any way to get rid of it -- it keeps the player moving.

Huh? You want to be (kind of) true to Berserk!, you don't want more weapons other than Gatsu's standard sword, you want to give the player a "berserk" mode in which all they can do is kill kill and kill some more in melee, yet you want the player to start running away like a chicken to recover from his wounds? I can't see Gatsu ever running away from combat so often :P

Also, having a way in which to take a some pain out at the cost of energy, keeps pain in the game, because you must run away to recover or use this skill to stay and fight like a true berserker :P

**EDIT Note that the idea suggested doesn't take out ALL the pain. So you'd still ave to run in some circumstances /EDIT**

Multistrike traits -- for this we have the speed system! Double strikes are just two fast strikes.

Yeah, this is nice.

Regarding attacks, it would be really nice to see some kind of animation when you do a special move. It would make the game funnier, in my opinion :)

[Igor Savin]

Nah, it's not that those ideas are bad, I'm just trying to show you why I think my way of thinking is better. But you may proove me otherwise :). I stated not only the things I don't like, but also the design/gameplay reasons behind it -- so there's plenty room for discussion :)

Your design\gameplay reasons leave very little or no room for discussion ("-Energy tweaking will ruin the balance -NO IT WON'T! -No, it will! -I tell you it won't!..")... The only argument I could use would be knife put next to your neck in a form of an alternative game, which would be blasphemious and superior at the same time.

I second what Adral said about running away.

When are the sources coming out?

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Hey, just tell why do you think Energy tweaking would help the game :]. As for the sources -- they'll be out with the official 0.8 release.

[Igor Savin]

Hey, just tell why do you think Energy tweaking would help the game :]. As for the sources -- they'll be out with the official 0.8 release.

As if I know why it will ^_^. For me it's all about adding new ways to modify "some invisible magical numbers" and thus extend the possibilities and options of character development (which is the greatest fun for me).

Okay, so when do you plan releasing that one?

[Igor Savin]

Well, that's bad - less tactical choices. But still it's your game, so do whatever you want :)

We should keep track of "Nice things that Kornel will never\shouldn't bother trying to  do" and save them for the branch. Would you mind lending a hand in brainstorming what is there to be done after sources are released?

[Adral]

Just some more ideas to argue a bit more:P

Now to traits -- here are come general comments. With the ONLY exception of Ironman (which is only there for reasons of fallback in case no other skills are available for choice) I'd like to keep it the way that ALL skills have a direct visual representation in the game, and are not just modifying some invisible statistics (like most of the traits in DoomRL). Why? It's more fun that way.

Well, then just DO a graphical representation when using ALL the skills:P Do an animation or whatever, and then the game will be more open to new ideas :)

Defense IS increased when not attcking ;]. It is increased a little if moving, and more if not doing anything :P.

Really, what's the point of having more defense when standing still?

* Gatsu is surrounded by a pack of Mandragores and skeletons
Gatsu says "Heh, they think they can kill me, but I'll stand right there doing nothing and they shall die of boredom!"

I think defense should be increased when running more than when standing still...

Just my opinion, though :P

[Adral]

We should keep track of "Nice things that Kornel will never\shouldn't bother trying to  do" and save them for the branch. Would you mind lending a hand in brainstorming what is there to be done after sources are released?

Of course not! I feel honoured, I love sharing ideas! :)

[Blade]

I just played few more times, and my opinion still is that high-level monsters shouldn's be generated on first levels.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Duh! I didn't even make an official release, and already people are scheming to overthrow me? ^_^

Kiddin' of course -- there would be no greater honour for a roguelike developer, then if his game spawned a variant that would be successful. And it would be the first such case in the post-crawl roguelike world :)

@Bored on Berserk -- sorry I can't imagine being bored on Berserk :P. What I like about Berserk is the fact that it's a double edged sword, and that sometimes it's a nuiscance. I can't put into the game the main disadvantage of Berserk from the manga (friend or foe) so I try in other ways to make berserk a double edged weapon. There will be traits usable only OUTSIDE berserk in the future :). But I don't completely forgoe the chance of a Willpower based trait that would allow you to reload on berserk.

@Energy replenishing -- the only additional way to replenish energy that I think might be berserkish, would be a trait that for a formidable amount of HP would replenish your energy and maybe even remove the pain. Why HP cost? To show that Gutts is burning his body! But I'm not that sure of it yet... what do you think?

@Defence when standing still -- standing still is not doing nothing -- if Gutts stops attacking that means he focuses on defence, right? ^_^

BTW, I had a crazy, and probably unimplementable (yet?) idea -- character choice! :P

Berserker (Gatsu)
Fencer (Serpico, pre-eclipse Griffiths, pre-Gatsu Farnese )
Witch (Schierke, Flora, post-Gutts Farnese)

I only added "classes" that would give realy different play experiences. There could be a few more unlockable after game completion:

Forsaken (Skull Knight)
Beast (Zodd)
Apostole (kheh ;])

In the last two cases, the objective of the campaign mode would be slightly different ^^.

Note that that WOULD allow for weapon choice, and a lot of other character choices... but I'm afraid that's a little out of scope... or maybe?

@Blade - I nerfed the generation. Summoners will appear at earliest the 3rd night.