Other Roguelikes > Berserk!
Endless/Massacre : Request for Ideas
Adral:
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 16, 2007, 13:32 ---Duh! I didn't even make an official release, and already people are scheming to overthrow me? ^_^
Kiddin' of course -- there would be no greater honour for a roguelike developer, then if his game spawned a variant that would be successful. And it would be the first such case in the post-crawl roguelike world :)
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If your game gets a variant it means people are really interested in it!
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 16, 2007, 13:32 ---@Bored on Berserk -- sorry I can't imagine being bored on Berserk :P. What I like about Berserk is the fact that it's a double edged sword, and that sometimes it's a nuiscance. I can't put into the game the main disadvantage of Berserk from the manga (friend or foe) so I try in other ways to make berserk a double edged weapon. There will be traits usable only OUTSIDE berserk in the future :). But I don't completely forgoe the chance of a Willpower based trait that would allow you to reload on berserk.
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Ok, I concede :)
Thinking about it, in fact it's cool that it's a double-edged sword, so I see your point. And if there is room for a trait that lets you reload while berserkering (for an energy cost, of course) then we're on the same track :D
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 16, 2007, 13:32 ---@Energy replenishing -- the only additional way to replenish energy that I think might be berserkish, would be a trait that for a formidable amount of HP would replenish your energy and maybe even remove the pain. Why HP cost? To show that Gutts is burning his body! But I'm not that sure of it yet... what do you think?
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Hmm... could work - but don't let it replenish Pain. I think it's better to have a way of getting rid of pain instead of running (spending energy), as I said before. Feels more like you are one crazy man taking his last chances against hell! Maybe restrict it so you can only use it when berserk at lower levels, and finally be able to use it outside of berserk when at the highest trait level? Of course, using it outside berserk should cost you more energy - you need to concentrate more and you are not as crazy :P
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 16, 2007, 13:32 ---@Defence when standing still -- standing still is not doing nothing -- if Gutts stops attacking that means he focuses on defence, right? ^_^
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I see that point, but I see that, from a gaming perspective, it makes little sense...
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 16, 2007, 13:32 ---BTW, I had a crazy, and probably unimplementable (yet?) idea -- character choice! :P
Berserker (Gatsu)
Fencer (Serpico, pre-eclipse Griffiths, pre-Gatsu Farnese )
Witch (Schierke, Flora, post-Gutts Farnese)
I only added "classes" that would give realy different play experiences. There could be a few more unlockable after game completion:
Forsaken (Skull Knight)
Beast (Zodd)
Apostole (kheh ;])
In the last two cases, the objective of the campaign mode would be slightly different ^^.
Note that that WOULD allow for weapon choice, and a lot of other character choices... but I'm afraid that's a little out of scope... or maybe?
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Go. For. It. This idea is just genius!
I think it would be better to focus on it later, when Campaign is implemented, though...
Fingerzam:
This topic seems to have gotten pretty big since yesterday morning, so I'm posting this before reading the whole topic (for some reason, I can't concentrate on anything right now).
As Berserk is a game of tactical bloodshed, what it needs is to have more tactical options. I have some suggestions for that.
The new skill system is nice, and I have a suggestion on how to improve it.
Instead of having multiple levels in skills, you could have a base level for a skill, and then the player could improve a part of his choice of that skill. For example. After the initial level of sweep the player would have a choice to either improve its damage or decrease energy/time. With Impale the player could increase max range, damage or decrease energy/time cost. Of course Running or Ironman couldn't be changed.
A skill could also have some one time bonuses to buy, or that they would automatically get when you have some other skills, so you could buy Jump before Impale, but it would get the attack part only after you have Impale (maximum jump distance could also be affected by END and/or DEX).
This could work better if the skills had a point cost and you would get for example 2 points after each level. A new skill would cost 2 points and skill improvements would cost 1 point, so that taking sweep and 2 levels of damage and 2 levels of energy decrease would result in a sweep with dmg of a normal attack and energy cost of level 3 sweep (this is because I think that sweep should do normal dmg on lvl3 if it doesn't already).
Well, maybe not exactly like that because everyone would just take lvl 2 energy decrease first, but you get the idea, the player would have a choice to increase a part of the skill fast or advance all parts at the same speed.
Another suggestion is to have monsters that have unique moving patterns and behaviour so that a skilled player can handle a single monster without taking any damage, but when there are more than one, or some other monsters, the player cannot avoid taking damage anymore. This is basically how the Mandagores work now. When there is only a single one I can take it on easily, but when there's a horde of beasts, the last thing I want there is a Mandagore or two. It adds pressure and makes the player want to panic.
And another thing, which possibly should go to RC3 topic. Cannon needs to be powered up (though it might just be only me). I want to have a real weapon of mass destruction, so that it will really kill anything on its path. I can handle a decreased number of cannon balls if they really shred everything apart.
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 16, 2007, 10:27 ---I will cut down the cost of Strength/Dexterity/Endurance by half in the next version. I hope that it will not render Willpower useless tough :/.
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I don't know if anyone else has told you this yet, but DON'T DO IT! It will make the game easier and prolong playtime, making the game more boring. A MUCH better solution would be to just give the player 2 points after each night.
Fingerzam:
Okay, now I read the whole topic and here are my comments on some points made. Some of it has already been said by other people, as I wrote it while reading.
--- Quote from: Adral on January 16, 2007, 10:52 ---New terrain types, with more tactical choices:
- Castles, with rooms and such (sorta like DoomRL)
- Swamps (already suggested)
- Fields terrain generator with hills and rivers
- Forest with river/lake (randomly appears)
- Caves, with pseudo-natural creation
- Make some terrain indestructible
- Already noted: having some terrain influence your movement speed is a good idea - more tactical decisions
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Hills should also give you a to hit/dmg bonus for higher ground and negative bonus for being lower then your opponent. Water could make dodging harder for both you and your enemies.
--- Quote from: Blade on January 16, 2007, 11:08 ---Sharpshooter - increases accuracy of crossbow, knives, and bombs. Requires: Dex = 14
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DEX 14 = sharpshooter already, making this useless. If you want something like this, do not require DEX, as it already provides this, but it would be useful for those who have lower DEX(though might make DEX less useful). This is like those ADoM's learning traits that are useless for those who have the requirements (might have been something else than learning, it has been a while since I played ADoM).
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 16, 2007, 13:32 ---@Bored on Berserk -- sorry I can't imagine being bored on Berserk :P. What I like about Berserk is the fact that it's a double edged sword, and that sometimes it's a nuiscance. I can't put into the game the main disadvantage of Berserk from the manga (friend or foe) so I try in other ways to make berserk a double edged weapon. There will be traits usable only OUTSIDE berserk in the future :). But I don't completely forgoe the chance of a Willpower based trait that would allow you to reload on berserk.
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Perhaps make reloading possible while berserking only when you have no fairydust left?
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 16, 2007, 13:32 ---@Energy replenishing -- the only additional way to replenish energy that I think might be berserkish, would be a trait that for a formidable amount of HP would replenish your energy and maybe even remove the pain. Why HP cost? To show that Gutts is burning his body! But I'm not that sure of it yet... what do you think?
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I don't like this idea much, I don't think anything other than berserking should affect energy (and of course one use items(=fairydust)), though the idea of using energy to resist pain does sound reasonable.
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 16, 2007, 13:32 ---@Defence when standing still -- standing still is not doing nothing -- if Gutts stops attacking that means he focuses on defence, right? ^_^
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Does running increase chances to avoid imps?
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 16, 2007, 13:32 ---BTW, I had a crazy, and probably unimplementable (yet?) idea -- character choice! :P
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Perhaps make it possible to have mods, and have these available in an example mod? Though I have nothing against it in the game itself either.
My thoughts on the skill suggestions:
What I blelieve is that Berserk doesn't need an infinite list of different skills (of course, this is just my opinion), but a relatively small list of different and tactically valuable attack/movement skills. But another thing I also understand is that this is brainstorming, and the whole point of it is that everything that comes to mind should be said, even if it doesn't make any sense at first, it can always help someone else get another idea.
I think I'm starting to sound like I'm trying to take the project over. Perhaps I should just learn to code and make a variant, since I already have an idea for one.
Also, this game seems like an excellent place to prototype different character advancement systems, as advancement is fast.
Adral:
--- Quote from: Fingerzam on January 17, 2007, 03:35 ---Hills should also give you a to hit/dmg bonus for higher ground and negative bonus for being lower then your opponent. Water could make dodging harder for both you and your enemies.
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I like this terrain ideas!
--- Quote from: Fingerzam on January 17, 2007, 03:35 ---Perhaps make reloading possible while berserking only when you have no fairydust left?
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In my opinion, having to spend a trait and some energy every time you want to reload while berserk sounds balanced, but yours could be another idea for it.
--- Quote from: Fingerzam on January 17, 2007, 03:35 ---My thoughts on the skill suggestions:
What I blelieve is that Berserk doesn't need an infinite list of different skills (of course, this is just my opinion), but a relatively small list of different and tactically valuable attack/movement skills. But another thing I also understand is that this is brainstorming, and the whole point of it is that everything that comes to mind should be said, even if it doesn't make any sense at first, it can always help someone else get another idea.
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Actually, you ideas on "improvable traits" sound very good. And they wouldn't help to not clutter the keyboard with thousand of letters in order to use all the skills.
Kornel Kisielewicz:
@Partial skill increases -- this may sound as fun, but it has two problems associated with it -- the first one is the confusion it adds for beginning players -- there's nothing that turns off beginning players from a game then an excess of micromanagement, and seemingly unmeaningfull choices. The other, much harder, problem is the question of balance. And to be honest, I'm afraid to open this can of worms :/. Any ideas/suggestions?
@Movement patterns -- sure, I'll remember it when upgrading the AI. Bulldemons are annoying in RC4 ^_^
@Improving cannon -- hell, it's been improved thrice already :). Also, it can't be gone overboard with, or else people will save it for boss monsters. I see the cannon more of a mass sweeper, then a single hard hitting weapon, on not?
Running does help avoid imps, but now that you mentioned it, it should do that a lot more effectively -- I'll do that.
Reloading only if you got no fairydust left sounds logical, but stinks too much of metagameing??
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