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[Sambojin]

I figured I'd open a discussion on build variants for 0.9.9.7. What do people think are good now? Bad? Overpowered as hell? Also take into account the relatively large amount mod-packs (although they're nicely randomized now, no free tac boots for you) and the guaranteed weaponry you get (2MLs but no nuclear-plasma etc). My comments will mainly be on the standard game, challenges are too specific for general thoughts.

Just on a brief look-see, masterless builds can now be absolutely awesome. Easily competing with a lot of the masters and often surpassing them. Here's what I think are two of the main reasons why. Shottyman and Juggler.

The changes to SM allows you to reload RLs and MLs with a step-reload. This is both convenient and incredibly powerful. It also fits into the meta-game perfectly. Reloader gets you through the Arena easily for your RL, SM gets you through CC+ easily (even on UV) by simply zerking past the guards and rocketing the AM to death. It's turned a shotty run on UV into an almost guaranteed two mod-packs, using just the 9 rockets the game gives you. Sure you'll have to pick everything else off with your shotgun, but once the AM is down, everything stays down. This leads onto the Wall, which gives you a backpack, ML and donk-loads of rockets. Bruisers are easier, Shamblers are easier, everything just falls into place nicely. It's really, really good now.

Onto Juggler. It's been buffed to let you retrieve a weapon that's LOADED now. It used to be handy, now it's fantastic. Whilst these extra weapons take up inventory slots, the amount of firepower you can dish out is amazing. There's 2 MLs in the game now, so for god's sake, hotkey MLs in the keybindings section. Between 8+ rockets on call, plus whatever shotties/plasmas/BFGs you're carrying, pretty much anything and everything is toast. It works with everything though, from chainguns/plasmas to, well, anything. All that for two traits. Build as you want, shotties/rapids/rockets or a combo, but you get a big boost to firepower/reload no matter the build.

Anyway, I'm not sure if they are, but I'm tempted to think of these as the new go-to traits in this version. Either of them can be built into your favoured gun type, but both together works well as a general build. Rel->Rel->SM->Fin->Jug works for pretty much any build barring rapid-fire (although you can move over to it in later game, it's only 5 levels worth). You can whack WK, Int or BA in there if you want for each class specific trait (you're half way to WK anyway for Marines and Scouts), or just build out from there. Is it as good as a 5-level master with no trait blocking? I'd be tempted to say it is.

I'd chuck this up as a new OP build anyway. It also looks deceptively like it would fit into MSh and MGr, as well as a probably a couple of other masters. I'll have to try it out.

As a question, does Master Gunrunner with SM both shoot and reload whilst running? Because with a decent shotgun or anything explosive, that would be awesome. Scary, dangerous, but awesome. Khe, khe, khe........ "Bugger it, I'll just press TAB and see what happens." :)
 

[tdef]

As a question, does Master Gunrunner with SM both shoot and reload whilst running?

yes but gunrunner blocks whizkid which makes it a no-no for me

[Sambojin]

Fair enough. I'm just getting used to DoomRL again, but damn. Even with very bad play the Arena and CC+ is pretty easy with SM on HMP (even on UV with niceness beforehand). I actually saved scummed it because I wanted to try a few things (did a MFa build instead of the aforementioned SM->Jug build on a techy. Wanted to try a rocket-jump open), but SM really does work horribly well. It's very good with Rel/SM at the start, but still not too bad with a Jug lead.

I tried a Fin->Jug->Rel->Rel->SM build, and while Jug still does very well with a multi-shotgun run early on, it's an inventory management nightmare. Which sort of kills it for me, even if I'm a slow player anyway (+smoke breaks, +drink breaks, +just keeping DRL running anyway while I'm doing other things. I've done 46 hour runs, but never 25 minute ones).

I'll retract Fin-Jug as an easy build, it's just very micro-managey. It makes every build better in non-challenge environments though (Gun-kata? Who needs it? I carry two pointless weapons and a heap of pistols for switch reloads). I'll stand by the SM statement though. This trait has gotten better by far, it's easy, and even fits into many master traits.

Rel->Rel->SM->Int->Int for a scout? Choose anything you want after that. Int(2) is a master-trait anyway.

Rel->Rel->SM->WK->WK for a techie (or just run MFa with Juggler). Meh, not focused, MFa does stuff better in the long run, but you'll never have to carry mod-packs around.

MAD with a Marine on a non-challenge game (and even with) gets great with extra rockety goodness.

So anyway, what are all your thoughts on new build variants? They were my 2c, but as I play the new version more and discover all the good things (Military Base? So I "need/have a tac shotty? Thanks) I'll no doubt refine my ideas more. What's the good/bad/ugly from our more experienced players? Not as an uber-build statement, but the game really has changed, both the meta-game, traits and mod-availability-wise.

I'm not even sure yet if it got harder or easier, but it sort of feels easier than the last version. No doubt I'll change my mind after another 50 pointless deaths (that I had medi-packs, phases and weaponry to get me out of).
 

[Sambojin]

(sorry, double-post)

Is it even vaguely viable to make a knife-thrower build on a standard game? Do they get Brute's damage? Even if not it's accuracy, it might be good for a laugh in anything non-AoB. Knife primary then shotgun/whatever as a secondary, pistol as a tertiary switcher, Fin->Jug->whatever build, then just fill the inventory with knives (and the normal stuff).

Shift-F, aim, fire-stab. Press 2, press 1. Do it again.
 
I'll check it in a sec, but a Jug knife-thrower sounds very fun. I hope "no-item"->combat knife still counts as a free weapon switch. I'll check the damage/accuracy thing shortly.
 

[Evilpotatoe]

While SM has been buffed to something great in 0.9.9.7, I really hate picking reloader, especially now, with the ridiculous ton of ammo boxes randomly dropped (or in crates, or randomly found in military base's crates, or in new specials...)
In other words, I don't want to put 3 levels for just SM.

My current builds are rather focused on SoB 2 or 3, which are just insane. Won my 1st N! game with, probably SoB->Int2->Sob3, and it looks like the easiest build to me atm (while MAc is, of course way more efficient if you got enough skill to live without Int2, but ammo is a negligible problem for me. A few shell boxes are enough to ensure you'll have enough.)

I don't pick juggler either. It's OP, of course, but I just rarely want to "waste" a level for Jug while I need a mastery, 4 levels for WK, 4 levels for SoB, some EE and HR.


The other skills seem quite pointless to me. Iro slightly reduces YASD risks, TaN needs to take damages, which is not the best way of planning to play unless you're melee, and Fin is mainly necessay for WK (Well, Fin3 is great, I always pick it at clvl 12, but 1st lvl are really weak compared to SoB or EE, in term of DPS).
SoG and Bru are just build-specific.


Same applies to the masteries :
Melee masteries are great, since melee is OP
Gun kata isn't bad, but "blocks WK", and BD seems useless, so I only consider MSS
Shottyhead blocks SoB for nothing. Fireangel, at least, gives something useful... but not necessary at all, so I wonder why I would build it outside of the MockRL module. MaD blocks WK, but gives a serious compensation.
MEn seems useless. MCe and MAc are OP.
Scavenger doesn't weaken your char but is only good for Ao100 or technician badges. Survivalist is useless, and gurunner... blocks WK and SoB, doesn't work with game's best weapons, and has no effect when not running. Tried it once for AAoRa, and discovered that SM wasn't in the prerequisites... Needing lvl 9 to become operationnal, while I can be at lvl 2 with SoB, seems ridiculously weak to me.

In other words, I only really consider MCe and MAc, plus MSS, MAD and melee masteries (but I hate restricting masteries, so I don't wanna suck with non-gun or non-melee weapons, or have WK blocked).
MSc is very specific to challenge or assembly hunt, but doesn't really help you to win the game (unless you want to disassemble and early Trigun, but I'd prefer switching to gun build and/or try a Klear cross)

[siwucha]

I recommend trying out gunrunner + SM with a missile launcher for sheer awesomeness. It takes a while to get it running, and I am not so sure it is worth it for normal gameplay, since I hate destroying my cover, but in open spaces you can dish out ridiculous amount of rockets while avoiding hits.
Should give a good chance for damageless spiderdemon, too since he will always flinch when taking a rocket to the face.

See my mortem here: http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6439.0.html

I also liked fireangel as a "melee master" trait.

[AlterAsc]

MAc and MMB are my favorites. MSs is cool too.
Juggler should be fixed. I'm not hotkeying anything, that's uncool.

[Flame_US3r]

Juggler should be fixed. I'm not hotkeying anything, that's uncool.

Onto Juggler. It's been buffed to let you retrieve a weapon that's LOADED now. It used to be handy, now it's fantastic. Whilst these extra weapons take up inventory slots, the amount of firepower you can dish out is amazing. There's 2 MLs in the game now, so for god's sake, hotkey MLs in the keybindings section. 

I think it's unnecessarily obtuse to have a trait that can (and should) be modified in the keybindings for an advantage. There had been talk of a Juggler rework, methinks and I agree that there should be some sort of change here. In my opinion, it should either affect all inventory weapons (used with/without hotkey bindings) or none at all and be reworked. Swapping between the two prepared weapons instantly makes a lot of sense; I think that should remain.

[tdef]

maybe adding picking up/ dropping items istantly? like, you're running at 2% hp from some barons towards the stairs but leaving that Onyx pack there would be a waste but oh no! inventory full and dropping something + picking up would mean just getting killed, you wish you'd picked juggler last level up!

of course it would fit a very narrow set of situations but it's one of those things that pay off rarely but handsomely